The Battle of Jutland w/Chris Sams

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Podcasts. 
Hello and welcome to Shipwrecks 

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and Sea Dogs, tales of mishaps, 
misfortune, and misadventure. 

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I'm your host, Rich Napolitano. 
Today I'm pleased to have with 

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me Naval historian Chris Sams, 
who has a number of things that 

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he does, including a podcast and
such, but I'll let him tell you 

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about that. 
Welcome so much, Chris Sams. 

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Thank you for joining me. 
Hi Rich, thanks for having me. 

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Long term fan of the show. 
Oh, thank you. 

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Just to start out, tell 
everybody a little bit about all

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of the the work that you do in 
terms of maritime history. 

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So yeah, I wrote about many, 
many years ago now, 2015, I 

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wrote a book on German cruiser 
warfare in the First World War 

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and it kind of became a gateway 
into, into more and more naval 

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history. 
In 2019, I got divorced, which 

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meant I had far much more time 
to do naval history. 

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So I've been, I've worked on 
another podcast, I do research 

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for other people. 
I've got my A sub stack which I 

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write far, far too many words on
naval history, including the 

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weekly podcast. 
And yeah, just generally trying 

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to carry the flag to show that 
naval history is actually a lot 

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more interesting than many 
people give it believe it is. 

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Well, I for one read your sub 
stack every every time it comes 

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out and I listen to your podcast
and I would say that you're one 

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of the most knowledgeable 
historians out there about naval

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history. 
Oh, thank you. 

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So today, of course, I've 
invited you to talk about the 

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Battle of Jetlin, which was one 
of the most significant battles 

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of World War One, naval battles 
anyway, and in particular its 

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use of battleships or or 
dreadnoughts, as we say. 

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So we're going to talk about 
that, but how about we first set

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the stage now? 
We're not going to rehash the 

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entire causes of World War One 
and everything. 

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That's far too detailed. 
But let's set the stage for the 

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Battle of Jetlin. 
What was happening at this point

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in the war and what was the 
situation in terms of the German

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fleet and the British Royal 
Navy? 

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Well, the big. 
Problem for Germany is the North

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Sea because Germany being mostly
landlocked does require merchant

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ships to bring in raw materials,
especially things for making 

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shells and gems and oil and 
things. 

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And the British doing exactly 
what they did against Napoleon 

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which is build a massive 
blockade of ships so nothing can

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get in through the North Sea. 
So Germany has had to think sort

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of pre war and then going into 
the First World War, how do we 

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deal with a blockade? 
And by 1914 the big onus would 

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be, well, the, the fleet's going
to go have to go out and defeat 

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the British. 
And the British are really, 

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really looking forward to this 
because they haven't had a 

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massive naval victory since 
Trafalgar. 

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They haven't had a a loss since 
the War of 1812, but that goes 

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out the window in November 1914.
But they want the Germans to 

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come out. 
They want to have another 

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Trafalgar. 
They want to trounce the German 

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fleet and then they can do 
whatever they want. 

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They can go and bombard German, 
the German coastlines. 

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It gives them so much leeway and
there are certain elements in 

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the German Admiralty who want 
what they refer to as der tag, 

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the big day, that they could go 
out, trounce the British. 

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Luckily there are lots of more 
intelligent people within the 

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German Admiralty who say that's 
a stupid idea. 

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And so they come up with 
different ways to try and fight 

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in the North Sea. 
And the British strike first 

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they attack Helgeland, bite and 
then the Germans start raiding 

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towns on the North East of the 
British coast like Scarborough 

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and Yarmouth. 
And the aim is they're going to 

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that the British will send ships
out to chase the German ships 

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and they can pull back onto 
larger German ships and sink 

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them, you know, whittle them 
down slowly. 

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The after dog, a bank. 
The Kaiser is a bit more 

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reluctant to risk his 
battleships. 

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So EU boat arms step up and say 
hold my beer, we've got this. 

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And so they start carrying out 
anti shipping against merchant 

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ships. 
That doesn't go well. 

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You have the Lusitania, then the
Arabic incident, and America 

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basically says if you keep 
sinking ships, we're going to 

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get involved. 
And Germany sort of back off. 

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So beginning of 1916, the ball 
is back in the fleet's court. 

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Many people think like the 
German Navy beat a homogeneous 

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lump. 
It's three separate arms with 

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the Zeppelin arm, the Uber arm, 
and then battleship arm, and 

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they're all kind of vying for 
control. 

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Well, in 1916, Sheer takes over 
the the fleet and he demands to 

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have access to both the other 
arms. 

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They're all now subordinate to 
his ships and he wants to carry 

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out an aggressive war. 
And the Kaiser kind of agrees, 

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as long as he doesn't put the 
fleet in risk. 

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And that's really important. 
Go out and do what you have to, 

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but do not risk the fleet 
because we can't replace it. 

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And so you have, in April, you 
have the Lowestoft rate where 

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HIPPA is sick. 
So they use Bodecker leads, the 

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battle cruisers, they attack 
Lowestoft, and they try to draw 

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small elements of the British 
fleet, preferably BT's battle 

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cruisers, onto the German 
battleships. 

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The British know what they're 
doing, and when they see the 

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smoke of the battleships, the 
British pursuers pull off and 

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leave them. 
So by the beginning of May 1916,

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they're getting ready for 
another, much bigger operation. 

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And of course the one of the 
tactics used here was by the 

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Royal Navy was, like you said, 
to blockade Germany. 

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And that was a big problem for 
them. 

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They were really suffering as a 
result of this blockade. 

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So do you think that was a 
motivation for the High Seas 

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Fleet to try to put a dent in 
this, the Royal Navy fleet at 

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the time? 
Oh, absolutely. 

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The blockade is just starting to
bite. 

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It's not quite up. 
By 1918 they're drinking Acorn 

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Made coffee, Einsett's Cafe, but
by 1916 it is starting to bite. 

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And the army, the German army 
are kind of going over the 

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defensive and but they're 
holding the line. 

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July, about a month after this, 
you get the first battle of the 

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Somme. 
The German army are throwing 

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troops into Verdun. 
And there's lots of questions of

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what are the Navy doing? 
Why aren't you doing anything? 

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And so you've also got that 
pressure as well that the Navy, 

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this much overspent on Navy 
should be doing something to 

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instead of sitting on its 
backside in Wilhelm's harbour. 

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So you've got the, you've got 
the blockade and then you've got

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a lot of social and political 
pressure as well that. 

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The Kaiser Lash Marine should be
doing something. 

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And the High Seas Fleet of 
Germany obviously were 

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outnumbered by the Royal Navy. 
So you mentioned trying to lure 

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them out a little bit at a time 
to pick them off. 

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And that's frankly a good 
strategy in my opinion, since 

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they did not have numbers. 
But leading into the end of May 

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of 1916, things are starting to 
take shape in terms of the the 

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Battle of Jetlin that would take
place. 

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So describe the situation 
leading right up to the battle 

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in terms of where the the fleets
were positioned and perhaps some

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of the intelligence that had 
been gathered or perhaps not 

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gathered. 
Yeah, not gathered on one side 

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and totally gathered on the 
other. 

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The majority of the German fleet
is around Wilhelmshavn Keel and 

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the Jade Estuary. 
They're building up. 

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They they wanted to go earlier 
in May, but the battle crews are

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sidelets that was damaged during
the lowest off rate and they 

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don't think that she's going to 
be ready for action till the 

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29th of May. 
So they push back go day. 

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They've dispatched U boats to 
the main British ports near 

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Scappa and further forth to 
watch for the Grand Fleet 

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because they don't want to 
engage the Grand Fleet. 

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I can't stress that enough 
because a lot of people when I 

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get to the Jutland conclusion, 
they'll often say different 

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things. 
But the main thing of the German

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fleet is not to engage Jellico. 
Unfortunately, the orders don't 

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go out to all EU boats for 
different reasons, and only two 

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of them get the delayed date. 
The weather's awful. 

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So Zeppelins can't go up because
they were going to use Zeppelins

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for aerial reconnaissance as 
well. 

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But I think that's all right. 
We'll, we'll just have to go 

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without them because EU boats 
can only stay on station till 

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the 2nd of June. 
So time is of the essence. 

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The British, they've, they've 
kind of realised something was 

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building. 
And so BT and his battle 

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cruisers have moved South. 
To the first of fourth. 

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And the main battleships are 
still at Scapa Flow, and they're

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on readiness alert. 
What the Germans don't realise 

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is that in 1914 the light 
cruiser Magdeburg was Well, they

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know it's sunk or beached. 
The Russians got all the code 

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books and promptly gave them to 
the British. 

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And then, after the Battle of 
Texel in 1914, a German 

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destroyer tossed a. 
Strong box over this, over the 

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side. 
And when some fishermen went 

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back and pulled it up, it was 
full of German code books. 

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So they know exactly what's 
going on and they know that 

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there's a fleet build up and 
that they're going to go to, 

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some of them are going to go to 
sea. 

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But there is a slight glitch and
it's one of my favourite 

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glitches in history. 
We've all worked for this guy, 

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the one jobsworth he is, because
Sheer has a radio signal for 

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when he's in port and then one 
when he's on. 

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Ship and when he's in port it's 
DK or the Navy. 

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Go to room 40, the civilian code
Breakers and say where is code 

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DK? 
And he said that's easy. 

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It's in Wilhelm's harbour. 
And they go, oh, cool. 

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So Shia's not gone to sea, not 
sort of taking into account that

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Shia is. 
If they'd have asked the right 

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question of where is Shia, he 
would have said, oh, he's on, 

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he's on the, on the German 
flagship and they're leaving 

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port. 
But they asked where is DK? 

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And so they, they think that 
Shia is staying in port. 

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So both fleets are going to sea 
without knowledge that the 

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battleships of either side are 
going to sea at this point. 

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And what would you say were the 
intended goals of each side as 

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the fleets were starting to 
converge toward the end of May? 

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Well, I think Scheer's goals 
were fairly simple and I think 

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he was expecting quite a quiet 
run of it because he's brought 

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some pre dreadnought battleships
with him which have no place in 

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a battle with dreadnought 
battleships. 

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They won't last. 
They aren't designed to deal 

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with plunging shot. 
They're only. 

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They're only about 7 years old, 
but because Dreadnought came out

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in 1905 and these were still on 
the slips, they were actually 

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obsolete before they hit the 
water. 

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But he's brought them with him 
and I've, I've argued in the 

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past that the reason he brought 
them was he wasn't expecting to 

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see dreadnoughts and every gun 
you've got is a bonus. 

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He's just hoping that Hippa's 
going to go out. 

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They're going to do a sweep of 
Like the Dog a bank, because 

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they think that British shipping
fishing ships are actually 

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wirelessing in German positions.
And so they're going to sweep up

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all these trawlers, inspect 
them. 

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If there's a British, if BT 
turns up, or one of the light 

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cruiser squadrons, Hippo will 
just draw them onto the 

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battleships. 
They'll decimate them, then 

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they'll turn around and go home.
Jellico's not sure what's 

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happening. 
He just knows that there is a 

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large German force out there and
they want to obliterate it. 

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They're hoping again that it's 
Hippa's battle cruisers. 

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So if they can get in, sink 
those, it's going to be a real 

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problem for the German fleeks. 
They'll never be able to replace

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them. 
And so he sent BT probing off to

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the South to try and find what 
German ships are there. 

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And ultimately Jellico may not 
be needed in the same way that 

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they had at Dog A bank that the 
battle cruisers could just have 

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their own action, defeat HIPPA 
and then come back. 

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But it rapidly falls apart quite
quickly. 

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And at what point did they did 
the two sides spot each other 

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00:14:25,230 --> 00:14:29,230
and realize that they were going
to start to engage? 

219
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,040
It all kind of starts well, EU 
boats have spotted them when 

220
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,680
they leave port, but because the
British are going out, they head

221
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,360
north. 
Or the Germans misread their 

222
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,720
positions and say that they're 
heading north. 

223
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,640
And so when those signals get 
passed back, Sheer thinks that 

224
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,200
the British aren't Grand Fleet 
aren't coming, they're going the

225
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,280
other way. 
But at 2:30, a Danish ship, the 

226
00:14:54,280 --> 00:15:00,680
NJ Fjord, is sighted in the sort
of North Sea in off Jutland, and

227
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,480
it's been stopped by two torpedo
boats, the B109 and the B11. 

228
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,680
Oh. 
So the Galatea and another 

229
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,960
cruiser go off to go and see 
what's going on. 

230
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,120
They fire on 109 and 110. 
So they pull away and they run 

231
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,360
into the German light cruiser 
Elbing, who scores the first hit

232
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,080
at the battle when she strikes 
Galatea. 

233
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,360
They then see the Germans then 
see these battle cruisers coming

234
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,160
towards them and think, right, 
well, let's get out of here. 

235
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,640
So they turn to HIPPA. 
Hippa sees the battle cruisers 

236
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,320
go, excellent, this is just what
we want. 

237
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:37,640
And he turns to the South and 
starts to lead BT towards Shia's

238
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,520
position. 
And the the British are a bit of

239
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,800
a disadvantage, partially 
because the weather's it's it's 

240
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,640
pretty crappy. 
It's quite foggy and misty so, 

241
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,560
but it's very hard to spot. 
The other thing is they're 

242
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,120
moving at such speed that the 
coal smoke from the funnels and 

243
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,960
also Gunsmoke from their guns is
obscuring the view of the ships 

244
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,320
behind them, whereas the Germans
have got a perfect view of them.

245
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,400
They're also hindered by the 
fact that Sir David Beatty is in

246
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,240
charge, because he is. 
There's two kinds of Admirals. 

247
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,360
It's the same with generals. 
You've got the you've got the 

248
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,880
the slow steady thinker in 
Jellico and then you've got the 

249
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,000
Hooray Henry that will go 
charging into action. 

250
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,360
Think the naval version of 
Custer as BT he's he's seen the 

251
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,880
enemy, he's chasing them and he 
doesn't give clear instructions.

252
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:31,160
And in doing so, he's got 4 fast
battleships within the Queen 

253
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,280
Elizabeth class. 
They've got the speed of a 

254
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,160
battle cruiser, the armour and 
the armament of a battleship. 

255
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,360
So they're really, really good. 
One of them is the greatest 

256
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,360
battleship of all time, HMS 
Warspite. 

257
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,440
He doesn't tell them where he's 
going so that for about 10-15 

258
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,840
minutes they're going in the 
wrong direction and so they have

259
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,360
to turn to catch up with him, 
which means for the first part 

260
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,640
of the run to the South, he 
doesn't have his big guns with 

261
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,280
him. 
As they get to the German line 

262
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,200
of battle cruisers, they pull 
alongside and the general order 

263
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,560
is the ship at the front, fires 
at the ship at the front, German

264
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,319
ship at the front, and then all 
the way down the line. 

265
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,480
Well, that doesn't get 
communicated properly. 

266
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,040
So the second German ship in the
line, the Derflinger, isn't 

267
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,000
actually being targeted by 
anyone and the Malka is getting 

268
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,200
targeted by two. 
German fire is also really 

269
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,760
accurate. 
It's slower than the British, 

270
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,920
but it's accurate. 
Whereas the British believe that

271
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:21,880
the more shells you put in the 
air, the more likely you are to 

272
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,119
hit something, and that means 
that they have unwritten 

273
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,880
instructions to leave the 
magazine doors open so that you 

274
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,160
can pass the shells through 
quicker. 

275
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:37,480
Unfortunately for two of the 
battle cruisers, that results in

276
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,480
them detonating and taking 
pretty much the entire cruise to

277
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,600
the bottom. 
Oh gosh. 

278
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,400
Well, the first one to get hit 
was HMS Lion, which is BT's 

279
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:52,280
flagship and Q turret gets hit. 
There's a fire in the turret and

280
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,600
the mortally wounded Major 
Francis Harvey of the Royal 

281
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,400
Marines, he closes the door and 
floods the compartment and stops

282
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,120
an explosion. 
In true British style, whenever 

283
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,800
there's a disaster we hand out 
Victoria Crosses and so he got a

284
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,480
Victoria Cross for that. 1602 is
the Indefatigable explodes after

285
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,400
taking 311 inch shells from the 
Van de Tan. 

286
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,240
Two men survive out of 1019 and 
at 25 past four the Queen Mary 

287
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,320
explodes with only 9 survivors 
out of 1275. 

288
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,120
And then 3 minutes after that 
the Princess Royal is obscured 

289
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:32,000
by smoke and spray after being 
hit by salvo and one of the 

290
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,000
signalers goes running up to 
Beattie and says Princess 

291
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,920
Royal's gone as well. 
And this is allegedly where he 

292
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,920
says that the the quote that is 
attributed to him which is 

293
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:42,720
Chatsfield. 
There seems to be something 

294
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,080
wrong with our bloody ships 
today. 

295
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,560
But the Princess Royal was fine.
It was just it was just smoke 

296
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,440
and and steam. 
But then they run into sheer. 

297
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,480
Yeah, this, this opening 
engagement clearly went to the 

298
00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,240
Germans in terms of casualties 
and damage to ships. 

299
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,040
So this battle's interesting 
because it it kind of happens in

300
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,600
a number of stages where some 
different tactics are are used. 

301
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,200
So after this opening 
engagement, what tactics were 

302
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,560
used by both sides in terms of 
how they would respond to this? 

303
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,600
Well, the the Germans were quite
happy at first because Hippa's, 

304
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,960
as I said, he's got this steady 
return of fire and it's really 

305
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,800
quite accurate, whereas the 
British are just trying to fire 

306
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,480
as often as quickly as possible.
They also use the destroyer. 

307
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,280
The British, both the British 
and the Germans use their 

308
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,120
destroyers quite, quite nifty to
try and break up each other's 

309
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:40,800
lines with torpedo runs. 
And so there's sort of darting 

310
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,640
in between the two fleets trying
to put torpedoes into the enemy.

311
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:47,840
The Sidelitz takes takes a 
torpedo, but isn't continues to 

312
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,840
stay in the battle. 
But HIPAA is just holding firm 

313
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:52,600
to. 
I just need to keep going 

314
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,400
because over there is sheer and 
when we get to the battleships, 

315
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,520
we'll take this, we'll take BT 
apart, we'll cause some real 

316
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,120
damage and. 
When they get to shear, they 

317
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,360
turn. 
They peel off and turn around. 

318
00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:09,440
BT sees them and sees all these 
this vast array of German 

319
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:14,920
battleships and immediately 
turns N, but again fails to tell

320
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,840
the four battleships that are 
with him. 

321
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,080
So they go screaming past BT as 
they're turning north. 

322
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,520
Then he quickly signals them and
says turn around, but instead of

323
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,240
turn together he gets them to 
turn in order. 

324
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,560
So they all get to the same 
patch of C then turn 180. 

325
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,360
Which means all the Germans have
to do is aim for that one patch 

326
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,440
of C and they can catch each 
battleship as it goes through. 

327
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,960
Thankfully the captain of the 
Malaya messes up his move and 

328
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,760
turns early so when the German 
fire comes in it misses both the

329
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,680
the 3rd and 4th ship in the 
line. 

330
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,280
And then they bring up the rear 
of the British formation and 

331
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,320
because the the better armoured 
than battle cruisers so they can

332
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,600
absorb all the German fire. 
And now the whole German fleet 

333
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,880
just moves as one, with Hippo 
pulling to the front but was 

334
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,840
sheer just behind to chase BT 
Squadron N hoping that they can 

335
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,240
overtake them. 
With BT retreating now heading 

336
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,360
north and the Germans are going 
to chase, were they hoping to 

337
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,480
catch up with the main Grand 
Fleet? 

338
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,720
BT is yes, he's he's hoping to 
get to Jellico and sort of 

339
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:28,000
report his report Shia's 
position and so that it's kind 

340
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,560
of the inverse of Trafalgar. 
Whereas Nelson where you have 

341
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,080
like the Franco Spanish line and
then Nelson cuts into it by the 

342
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,320
First World War. 
You want to be the line. 

343
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,280
What Jellico would be hoping is 
to form a line of all its 

344
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,120
battleships provide present his 
broadside. 

345
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:46,320
The Germans would come it's 
called crossing the T. 

346
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:51,200
So they would come at a vertical
angle into Jellico's line and 

347
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,680
just be bombarded. 
And so that that's the plan. 

348
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,120
However, BT hasn't told Jellico 
where he is or where they're 

349
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,760
coming from. 
So Jellico's at a point where 

350
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:06,920
he's trying to figure out where 
to put his forces and he's using

351
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,600
his, he's got a squadron of 
battle shoot battle cruisers 

352
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,800
under Admiral Hood to try and 
scout for BT and Admiral 

353
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,800
Arbenaut's cruiser First Cruiser
Squadron are trying to van form 

354
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,920
a van for the battleships. 
And they're all trying to get 

355
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,520
into formation and hope they'll 
be in formation and in the right

356
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,880
place for when the Germans 
arrive. 

357
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,680
And so it's a bit of feeling 
around in the dark. 

358
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,040
You mentioned that Jellico 
wasn't informed of what was 

359
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,160
happening. 
That seemed to happen a few 

360
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,280
times in addition to getting 
some faulty information. 

361
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,440
Well, yeah, this this becomes 
one of the big bones of 

362
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,560
contention after the battle. 
There's a massive enquiry as to 

363
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:50,680
why things didn't pan out. 
And unfortunately for Jellico, 

364
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,200
he gets promoted sideways and BT
gets put in charge of the Grand 

365
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,760
Fleet and he writes his own 
history as to what happened. 

366
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,320
And it's only been in sort of 
recent years that Jellico is 

367
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,200
being seen in a brighter light. 
But it is sort of a common, 

368
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,680
common theme throughout the 
battle that Jellico doesn't 

369
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,680
quite get all the information he
needs. 

370
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:14,160
And so he to the with the best 
of information he's got, he sets

371
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,320
his line and kind of hopes for 
the best. 

372
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,920
But he's starting to get reports
from Hood as to where, because 

373
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,000
Hood runs into BT, who's going 
in the opposite direction and 

374
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,880
sees the fleet and so starts to 
communicate. 

375
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,520
Look, they are coming this way. 
I think you're in the right 

376
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,600
position. 
And that's when Jellicoe sort of

377
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,360
pulls up and waits for them and 
you start getting an action in 

378
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:38,720
what's called Windy Corner where
the the fleets start to 

379
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,480
converge. 
Like the HMS Chester, which is 

380
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,240
light cruiser, which is part of 
Hood Squadron, gets heavily hit 

381
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,400
by German battle cruisers. 
And then the Weisbarden German 

382
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,280
light cruiser similarly gets 
into the wrong place and gets 

383
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,200
hit by German battle cruiser 
fire. 

384
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,840
And then Arbenaut decides, sees 
the Weisbarden and leads a 

385
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,720
charge of his four cruisers 
towards it, straight across the 

386
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,840
front of the German battle line.
And so his flagship HMS Defence 

387
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,880
explodes. 
Everyone's killed. 

388
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,560
The next one, I think it's the 
Warrior, is the second one that 

389
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,440
gets heavily damaged. 
Then the Duke of Edinburgh gets 

390
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,080
heavily damaged. 
It's an absolute mess. 

391
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:20,160
And then Hood's Invincible 
damages the Lutz of and then the

392
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,800
German battle line fires on 
Invincible and she blows up. 

393
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,040
And there's only about 9 
survivors from that. 

394
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,800
And to to give an example of the
confusion on one of the German 

395
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,240
battle of one of the British 
battleships, they see Invincible

396
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,560
explode and they see all these 
men go into the water and they 

397
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,920
cheer because they think it's a 
German battleship. 

398
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,960
And as they get closer, they see
the the Royal Navy White Ensign 

399
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,920
in the water and suddenly 
realise what's happening. 

400
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,680
So it just evolves into absolute
confusion at that point. 

401
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,880
And then Sheer goes through, 
he's got everyone in formation. 

402
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,720
They come out through the mists 
and all in front of him is just 

403
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,840
a line of British battleships. 
And the the Royal Navy at this 

404
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,440
point has by far superior 
numbers than the than the German

405
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,520
High Seas Fleet. 
But still, it's a pretty 

406
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,920
contentious battle with both 
sides taking a lot of damage as 

407
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,040
the day is progressing. 
Now, what shakes out in terms of

408
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,680
what I would call the second 
stage of this battle? 

409
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,680
Well, this is where Scheer is 
faced with a massive decision. 

410
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,520
He can either try and get into a
gun jewel with the British or he

411
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,000
could follow his orders to 
preserve the Grand Fleet. 

412
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,440
No, sorry, preserve the High 
Seas Fleet. 

413
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,720
And so he issues and I'm going 
to try not to get my 

414
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,680
pronunciation messed up. 
He carried the German Navy have 

415
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,440
this one manoeuvre that they 
practice time and time again and

416
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,800
it's the defects KET vedung nak 
storeboard, which basically 

417
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,680
means everybody turn 180° 
starboard and the whole fleet 

418
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,520
will wheel round and go the 
other direction. 

419
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,920
And they performed this 
manoeuvre absolutely seamlessly 

420
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,960
whilst under fire and returning 
fire against the British. 

421
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,560
They then send in the destroyers
to fire off as many torpedoes as

422
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,800
possible to kind of disrupt the 
British line to kind of cover 

423
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,480
the withdrawal. 
About 20 minutes later, the 

424
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,520
German fleet come back out of 
the mist to give the grand Fleet

425
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,040
another go because they're 
hoping that they've got off 

426
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,920
their line, only to find Jellico
is still in position, still 

427
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,200
raining down heavy calibre 
shells. 

428
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,480
And so they perform this 
manoeuvre again. 

429
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,720
I won't try and butcher my 
pronunciation the second time. 

430
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,680
And the whole fleet turn around 
and he sends the battle cruisers

431
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,960
in, in what's often referred to 
as the death ride of the battle 

432
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,040
cruisers because they, they get 
pounded, absolutely hammered by 

433
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,560
all the British battleships. 
I, I, I'd encourage anyone to go

434
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,680
away and after this and Google 
SMS Sidelitz, the battle of 

435
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,760
Jutland, the the state she was 
in when she got back-to-back to 

436
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,440
Germany. 
Like she'd taken on something 

437
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,000
like 5000 tons of water. 
So her prow is about a metre 

438
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,440
above the sea line. 
Just from all the damage that 

439
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,840
they took. 
It was absolutely horrendous. 

440
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,320
But they also managed to 
withdraw as well and the German 

441
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,560
fleet head head South and hope 
that darkness will cover the 

442
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,800
withdrawal. 
They unfortunately leave a 

443
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,160
couple of damaged ships behind, 
like the vice barn is completely

444
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,920
lost. 
The Frauen Lob also, they're 

445
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,080
just taken apart by the British 
and then Jellico moves to 

446
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,800
pursue. 
But the British don't know night

447
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,280
fighting. 
We don't we don't do that in the

448
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,560
First World War and prior to 
that you don't you can't fight 

449
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,080
at night. 
We don't have radar. 

450
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,400
Why? 
Why would we fight at night? 

451
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,880
But the Germans have got big 
powerful searchlights on their 

452
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,040
battleships, and although they 
don't want to fight, the the 

453
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,960
more capable of dealing with 
night actions. 

454
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:54,400
And the Jellico's plan is to cut
past shear and be in the jade of

455
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,880
the Jade Estuary so that when 
the sun comes up in the morning,

456
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,280
the Royal Navy's between the 
Germans and home. 

457
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,160
And then you can take them apart
at his leisure, which doesn't 

458
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:36,360
work. 
So that we're coming to the end 

459
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:41,840
of May the 31st 1916, the Grand 
Fleet is hoping to wait until 

460
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,360
dawn to re engage. 
So as as dawn breaks on June 

461
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:52,040
1st, now what unfolds? 
When the sun comes up, the 

462
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,080
German Navy are mostly home. 
Most of them get back by about 

463
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,680
5:00 AM in the morning and the 
British are in completely the 

464
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,320
wrong position because during 
the night the Germans crossed 

465
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,480
behind Jellico's wake. 
So the two fleets kind of pass 

466
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,000
each other and the British see 
them. 

467
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,400
There are different battleships,
the British battleships that see

468
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,960
German warships going behind 
them, but they don't tell 

469
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,240
Jellico because they presume he 
already knows or they don't want

470
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,520
to give away their own position 
and where they can see. 

471
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,800
There's a lot of destroyer 
actions going on during the 

472
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,600
night. 
The battleship pre dreadnought 

473
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,560
battleship Porman gets sunk and 
several other warships get 

474
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,240
damaged by torpedoes. 
The Black Prince joins a column 

475
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,880
of ships believing the Royal 
Navy only to find out it's the 

476
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,680
battleship Turingen which brings
on it's spotlights and a point 

477
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,840
blank range sinks with all 
hands. 

478
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,640
HMS Spitfire, A destroyer, Rams 
the dreadnought Nassau and the 

479
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,640
Nassau brings its guns down as 
low as it can and fires at 

480
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,560
Spitfire doesn't hit it, but the
shockwave that comes from the 

481
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,280
shells rips the superstructure 
of Spitfire away completely and 

482
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,240
leaves her quite badly damaged. 
So the night action is but it's 

483
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,200
it's all piece meal, little bits
going on here and there. 

484
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,760
And no one really realizes until
the sun comes up that shear has 

485
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,960
got away with comparatively much
smaller losses. 

486
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,080
Although the battle crew is a 
lot. 

487
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,440
So because of its heavy damage 
was scuttled to stop it falling 

488
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,000
into enemy hands. 
Allegedly that well, there were 

489
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,400
some of the crew trapped below 
decks and allegedly as she was 

490
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,120
sunk, they were all singing the 
Deutschland Leider. 

491
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,760
But many German sailors have 
said no, they they weren't. 

492
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,680
People were just generally 
Hacked Off that these men were 

493
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,000
sacrificed and not saved. 
Right, so the High Seas Fleet 

494
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,040
didn't intend on engaging the 
entire Grand Fleet. 

495
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,920
However, would it be fair to say
that they actually did and got 

496
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,680
away with it? 
Yeah, I'll probably get in 

497
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,440
trouble with a lot of Navy 
historians. 

498
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,520
However, those that know me know
where I stand on this. 

499
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,840
The Battle of Jutland is very 
contentious because there is no 

500
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,240
clear winner. 
Arguably the British won because

501
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,800
the German fleet, they did come 
out again in 1916 and they were 

502
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,200
still very active, but they 
never came out in force this 

503
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,240
level again. 
The Germans will claim that they

504
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,920
won because they completed all 
of their objectives, and they 

505
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,080
did. 
But arguably the British Navy 

506
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,440
could well within 24 hours, the 
Royal Navy could put back to sea

507
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,720
with more ships than the German 
Navy had available. 

508
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,720
The German Navy couldn't put 
back to sea with its whole force

509
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,200
for two months. 
So the way I argue it is draw 

510
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,520
another first word war 
comparison. 

511
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,560
The first day of the Somme is a 
resounded Britain gets some land

512
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,400
territory, but the level of 
casualties are horrendous and 

513
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,520
everyone talks about it being 
one of the greatest calamities 

514
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:56,360
in in the Western Front in 1916.
But by the end of October 1916, 

515
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,520
the battle of the Somme is won 
by the Allies and the Germans 

516
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,360
have fought back. 
Jutland is one day in a four 

517
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,680
year campaign. 
So for me, it's neither side 

518
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,800
won, but it doesn't necessarily 
decide the outcome of the war 

519
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,200
because the German fleet could 
have come out again. 

520
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,840
But there was concern that they 
would, that if they carried on 

521
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,800
winning battles to this level, 
they would soon lose the war. 

522
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,640
And there were a lot of strong 
voices within the ubo arm 

523
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,840
towards the end of 1916 who were
arguing for another unrestricted

524
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,360
uboat warfare campaign because 
they believed if they could stop

525
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,880
Britain getting something like 
600,000 tons, if they could six 

526
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:40,240
600,000 tons a month, then they 
could win the war before America

527
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,920
got involved. 
Because Britain would have to 

528
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,000
resign from shortages. 
And they could do all that 

529
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,240
before America could get its 
troops together and send them to

530
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,480
the Western Front. 
Didn't pan out that way. 

531
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,680
It is an interesting battle to 
analyse because if you just look

532
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,000
at the numbers alone, you know 
the the Royal Navy suffered 

533
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,040
more, more ships lost, more, 
more sailors lost. 

534
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,160
However, like you said, they 
prevented the the German fleet 

535
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,520
from essentially breaking 
through and causing causing 

536
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,760
chaos in the North Sea. 
So in that aspect it was a 

537
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,280
victory. 
But for the Germans, they did 

538
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,840
inflict more damage and that 
really was their goal because 

539
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,720
they didn't have the numbers. 
They could never engage the 

540
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,680
Grand fleet head to head and 
they were able to escape and get

541
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,160
back to Germany. 
But in the grand scheme of 

542
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,760
things, like you said, the the 
Royal Navy could put back to sea

543
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,200
much faster. 
They had greater resources, 

544
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,000
greater numbers. 
The German High Seas Fleet never

545
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,640
again really played much of A 
role as as far as having any 

546
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:52,760
kind of head to head battles. 
Except in the Baltic. 

547
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,440
OK. 
Yeah, quite heavily involved 

548
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,080
against the. 
Russians. 

549
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,680
Funny how we we Westerners can 
forget about the the Eastern 

550
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,360
Front. 
It's because I'm a German fleet 

551
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,000
apologist. 
Well, you know, you're as a 

552
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,800
historian, you're, you're being 
objective. 

553
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,960
So that's, I think that's that's
proper. 

554
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,480
And of course, as an American, I
shouldn't have anything to say 

555
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,440
about it because we weren't 
there at the time. 

556
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,880
But just looking at it though, 
objectively, like I said, it's 

557
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,920
there were, there were quite a 
few casualties on both sides. 

558
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,360
I, it would be fair to say that 
they both have achieved their 

559
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,880
objectives. 
And you could also say neither 

560
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,840
achieved their objectives. 
So like I said, it's a little 

561
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,679
bit interesting to look at if 
you're trying to figure out who 

562
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:45,040
came out with an advantage. 
Absolutely. 

563
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,719
And one of the comparisons I 
like to draw is in a football 

564
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:55,199
slash soccer way is it's like, 
it's like in the World Cup, 

565
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,600
England want to win and there's 
this, but Jutland is like the 

566
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,960
World Cup. 
England want a massive victory. 

567
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,000
They want to win the World Cup 
and they want to go home. 

568
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,160
And as far as everyone in 
England is concerned, every time

569
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,560
the World Cup starts, we're 
going to win it, but we always 

570
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:09,960
lose to the Germans on 
penalties. 

571
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,480
And this is one of those times. 
It's a, it's often referred I, I

572
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,320
refer to it as a, as a score 
draw. 

573
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,840
It's like a one all score draw. 
Germany, The German fleet went 

574
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,160
out. 
They caused damage, they got 

575
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,400
home, but they didn't achieve 
all their objectives. 

576
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,240
The British fleet went out, did 
some damage, broke the German, 

577
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,280
forced the German fleet to 
withdraw, but they didn't 

578
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,720
destroy them. 
So one all, no one really wins. 

579
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,960
We'll see you at penalties. 
That's a great analogy. 

580
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:42,720
I like that. 
Would it be correct to say that 

581
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,120
perhaps within the the Royal 
Navy itself and and as well as 

582
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,960
the general public it was seen 
more as a a failure because they

583
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,200
didn't destroy the High Seas 
Fleet? 

584
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,000
Oh, absolutely. 
The other thing is, and I've got

585
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,600
to quote the great naval 
historian Peter Hart in Naval 

586
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,360
Naval. 
Being in the Navy is great until

587
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,240
it goes wrong and then it goes 
really, really wrong. 

588
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,400
Take for example the battle 
cruisers, the amount of death on

589
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,360
those. 
But when these warships are 

590
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,800
coming back into port and they 
are shattered again, if anyone 

591
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,160
wants to Google image HMS 
Chester or HMS Lion post 

592
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,040
Jutland, there's blood all over 
the place. 

593
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,040
There are massive great gaping 
holes. 

594
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:31,760
There are bodies coming off and 
being buried. 

595
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,600
It looks like a defeat to anyone
that's anywhere near one of 

596
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,520
these naval bases. 
It looks like a defeat. 

597
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,680
The Germans within 24 hours have
put out a press release saying 

598
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,160
they've won. 
And they overstate, they 

599
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,480
naturally everybody overstates 
how many ships they've sunk, but

600
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,400
they reckon they've sunk about 
four battleships. 

601
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,080
And so they're very quick to 
come out and say we've won. 

602
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,720
But for everyone in Britain, it 
just the civilians, it's just 

603
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,640
the losses. 
I mean, like, like I said, there

604
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,320
was 1200 people killed on one 
ship alone. 

605
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,360
I think there was 6000 deaths 
from the British that day, which

606
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,920
is not a small amount. 
Thankfully, my two family 

607
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,880
members that were there weren't,
weren't scratched so but many of

608
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,600
the many other people lost quite
a lot of loved ones. 

609
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,560
And then there's lots of 
questions within the Royal Navy 

610
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,880
of, hang on, how the hell did 
you let the Germans get away? 

611
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,040
And that starts almost within 24
hours. 

612
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,080
The Admiralty are asking 
questions, there's enquiries, as

613
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,720
I said, there's, there's 
letters, BT quickly trying to 

614
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:37,040
cover his tracks for all his 
cock UPS, Jellico trying to put 

615
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,880
forward what went on and how it 
happened. 

616
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:44,320
And I managed to acquire a copy 
of BT's papers and Jellico's 

617
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,760
papers. 
And BT's have got lots of 

618
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,680
letters to lots of different 
people saying, well, as of this 

619
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,520
letter, where were you or what 
were you doing? 

620
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,360
And so there are lots of 
questions. 

621
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,760
And how will we deal with them 
again if they come out again? 

622
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,400
And next time we've got to make 
sure we absolutely trounce them 

623
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,120
because all the time the German 
fleet are there, you've got to 

624
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,880
keep the Royal Navy at Scapa in 
case they come out again. 

625
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,240
That sounds very similar for 
American listeners. 

626
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,960
The many battles of the American
Civil War, the Union Army, you 

627
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,640
could say technically won many 
battles. 

628
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,320
Antietam, Battle of Shiloh come 
to mind. 

629
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,520
You know, they suffered more 
casualties, but in the end took 

630
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,160
the ground and the Confederate 
Army retreated. 

631
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,960
But then President Lincoln was 
furious that the Union Army 

632
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,040
didn't pursue and destroy the 
Confederate Army. 

633
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,960
So it was a it was a victory, so
to speak, but not entirely. 

634
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,600
Yeah, yeah. 
Everyone wants big battles where

635
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,520
you've got a clear winner and a 
loser like Waterloo, you know, 

636
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,040
the the French withdraw, you've 
won the battle or Trafalgar, the

637
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,400
Franco Spanish fleet get 
decimated. 

638
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,720
Or even the Battle of the 
Falklands in 1914, the German 

639
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:59,160
fleet gets taken apart. 
Jutland there, there is this 

640
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,880
score draw of OK, we did some 
damage, but they're still there.

641
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:05,560
And that's both sides say that 
so. 

642
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,200
Now, this battle also had some 
historic significance in terms 

643
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,440
of what kinds of ships were 
being used, the future of those 

644
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,120
ships. 
Could you explain a little bit 

645
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,360
about that? 
Well, yeah, this is sort of the 

646
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,320
biggest, I think it's the only 
battle between dreadnoughts in 

647
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,960
the First World War at all. 
Most of the naval actions that 

648
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,520
happened before that were 
carried out when it's got 

649
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,120
battleships involved have been 
the pre dreadnoughts down in the

650
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:36,320
Mediterranean, the Dardanelles. 
So this is where we see sort of 

651
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,160
the big the massive naval 
investiture that the British 

652
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,960
have had and the Germans have 
had in these warships and they 

653
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,080
only ever see action this once. 
But several of the names go on 

654
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,640
to be quite famous. 
Not so much for the German Navy 

655
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,400
because most of them get 
scuttled in 1919 of in Scapa 

656
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,760
Flow during the surrender. 
But there's one of the the one 

657
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,800
German ship that I I'd like 
everyone to know is the 

658
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,760
Schleswig Holstein, which is one
of the pre dreadnought 

659
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,160
Deutschland class of the fourth 
battle group. 

660
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:11,000
She goes on to fire the first 
shots of World War 2, Gedenya or

661
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,520
Gdansk and Danzig. 
In of Poland on September 1st, 

662
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,560
1939 for the British, some great
names that also come up in World

663
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,240
War Two. 
You have the Queen Elizabeth, 

664
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,000
the Malaya, the Valiant and most
importantly as I said, the 

665
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,000
greatest battle battleship in 
history, which is HMS Warspite. 

666
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,120
Many people will say that the 
greatest warship was the 

667
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,560
Bismarck or the Amata or one of 
the Iowas or the Missouri. 

668
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,080
They're all wrong it's Warspite.
She's an absolute machine. 

669
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,960
She just, she's, she serves 
through the First World War. 

670
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,040
She's at Jutland. 
Yeah, she gets damaged and ends 

671
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,040
up sailing in a circle for about
an hour, drawing loads of German

672
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,720
fire. 
But she goes on through the 

673
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:52,560
Second World War. 
She's involved in the 

674
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,240
Mediterranean. 
I think she's at Cape Matipan. 

675
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,560
She gets hit by a German radio 
controlled bomb and still stays 

676
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,240
afloat. 
In fact, when she she turns up 

677
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:04,160
at D-Day, she fires the most 
shots there. 

678
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:06,400
They have to. 
She fires so much that she has 

679
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,920
to go back to Portsmouth to get 
new gun barrels and come back 

680
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,240
the second day. 
But her third, if you look at 

681
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:14,880
the photos, her third turret 
isn't firing because that was 

682
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,040
the one that was hit by the 
bomb. 

683
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,400
So they've just packed it with 
concrete to stop it from being 

684
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,680
damaged. 
And she's such a even when they 

685
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,400
tell her to get scrapped, she 
breaks a line and beaches at 

686
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,240
Prussian Cove. 
And because she just refuses to 

687
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:33,160
go quietly, she's I'm, I'm 
halfway through writing a sub 

688
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,240
stack about why she's the 
greatest battleship in history. 

689
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:38,160
Because she's just, she's just 
unstoppable. 

690
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,240
She's our greatest warship ever,
I think. 

691
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,200
Well, I'm not going to argue 
with you because you are far 

692
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,240
more knowledgeable about 
battleships than I am. 

693
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,120
But battleships have an 
interesting history though. 

694
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,560
Because you know in World War 2 
battleships were still around. 

695
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,280
But you could point to the 
destruction of HMS Prince of 

696
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:06,360
Wales and HMS Repulse in 1940 as
kind of the beginning of the end

697
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,440
of battleships because they were
sunk entirely by Japanese 

698
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,760
airplanes. 
Aircraft carriers had kind of 

699
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,480
supplanted and made battleships 
more or less obsolete during 

700
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,240
World War 2. 
But you know, going back to 

701
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:22,640
World War One, the the 
battleships, you know, 

702
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,800
dreadnoughts were, were quite 
powerful. 

703
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:31,040
But even in in World War One, 
this was the only head to So, 

704
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,600
you know, it's an interesting 
history to to look back on. 

705
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:36,920
Yeah, there there've been some 
near misses where they almost 

706
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,720
had battleship on battleship 
action, but yeah, Jotlin was the

707
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:43,280
was the only real one, 
especially between the the 

708
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,160
German and British fleets. 
So like I said, I think that's 

709
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,280
why there was so much pressure 
on it to be so much more than it

710
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,360
actually was, especially after 
the amount of investment that 

711
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,320
both countries have put into 
them. 

712
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,280
Well, Chris, it's been a 
pleasure to talk to you about 

713
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,960
the Battle of Jetland and waxing
nostalgically about battleships 

714
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,360
and Warspot. 
Can you tell everybody please 

715
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,240
how they can find your work and 
and listen to you and read more 

716
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:13,920
from you? 
Yeah, sure, I'm on social media.

717
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,600
I don't really do Twitter 
anymore for many different 

718
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:22,920
reasons, but I'm on blue sky. 
If you you can find me by it was

719
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,400
a the geeky. 
The back story behind my handle 

720
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,800
is I'm a bit of a Star Wars nerd
and there was a typo on a Star 

721
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,720
Wars card back in the late 90s. 
And so Moff Jerry Gerald, who's 

722
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,240
the guy who builds the second 
Death Star. 

723
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,560
They put an I in there. 
So if you look for Jerry Gerald 

724
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,960
14, you'll find me pretty much 
anywhere. 

725
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,480
I think that's my Substack 
handle as well, which is where I

726
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,760
I publish. 
I do like a short article once a

727
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,520
week, podcast once a week, which
is grandly named Maritime 

728
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,880
history with me live and 
unplugged because I can't figure

729
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:03,560
out how to do editing. 
And then I do like a major 

730
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,400
article once a week, usually for
the for the paid subscribers, 

731
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,000
but I do I do release them 
periodically for general reading

732
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,480
as well. 
I've been doing a series on pre 

733
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,920
dreadnought battleships in the 
Dardanelles which has been going

734
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,320
out on general release, which 
has been taking up a lot of 

735
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,760
time. 
But yeah, that's basically where

736
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,640
you can find me in most places. 
And like I said, I, I do follow 

737
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,400
you on Blue sky and I, I read 
your sub stack and listen to 

738
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,320
your podcast and, and I'm a fan.
Highly recommend it to all my 

739
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,720
listeners. 
So thanks. 

740
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,920
Thanks again, Chris. 
It was a pleasure speaking to 

741
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,720
you today. 
Likewise Rich and I'll I'll put 

742
00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:42,760
the check in the post for you. 
He's joking. 

743
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,160
Shipwrecks and Sea Dogs as 
written, edited and produced by 

744
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,640
me. 
Rich Napolitano. 

745
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,200
Original theme music is by Sean 
Sigfried 

746
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:59,440
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747
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,720
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748
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,800
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749
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,760
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750
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,440
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751
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,360
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753
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754
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,200
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755
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,480
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756
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,200
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757
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:38,440
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