Based on a True Story: The Terror & Franklin Expedition

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Hello and welcome to Shipwrecks 
and Sea Dogs, tales of mishaps, 

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misfortune and misadventure. 
I'm your host, Rich Napolitano. 

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Today I have a special treat for
you. 

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I was recently a guest on the 
Based on a True Story podcast to

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talk about season 1 of the TV 
series The Terror. 

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If you haven't seen it, it's 
based on the novel The Terror by

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Dan Simmons and as a sci-fi 
slash horror depiction of the 

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1845 Franklin expedition aboard 
HMS Terror and HMS Erebus. 

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It's really a fantastic series 
with Karen Hines as Sir John 

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Franklin, Jared Harris as 
Captain Francis Crozier, Tobias 

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Menzies as Captain James Fitz 
James, and Paul Reddy as Harry 

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Good Sir, and I know you swabs 
out there, cannot get enough of 

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the Franklin Expedition. 
Based on a True Story podcast is

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hosted by Dan Lefebvre and each 
episode discusses the historical

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accuracy of a film or television
series. 

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It has become one of my favorite
podcasts and I've literally 

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binged at least 100 episodes in 
the last few months alone. 

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Dan has almost 400 episodes now 
with extremely knowledgeable 

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guests to compare actual history
against what was portrayed on 

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screen. movies and TV from a 
wide range of genres are 

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covered, but I know what you're 
thinking. 

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Are there episodes about 
maritime history? 

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Absolutely. 
And you know, these are the 

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first ones I listened to Master 
and Commander Greyhound, Pearl 

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Harbor, Captain Phillips, 
Titanic, The Hunt for Red 

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October, Das Boot, USS 
Indianapolis, and many more. 

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Some of my other favorites are 
Napoleon, JFK, Schindler's List,

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and the highly unfortunate film 
the Conqueror featuring John 

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Wayne as Genghis Khan. 
I had a blast talking with Dan 

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about the Terror and the 
Franklin expedition, and he was 

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gracious enough to allow me to 
share that episode with you 

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here. 
But I encourage you to check out

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Based on a True Story podcast. 
Listen in your favorite podcast 

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player or watch on his YouTube 
channel at Based on a True Story

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podcast. 
OK, I hope you enjoy the 

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episode. 
Hello and welcome to Based on a 

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True Story, the podcast that 
compares your favorite Hollywood

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movies and TV shows with 
history. 

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Today we'll be learning about AM
CS The Terror, which is one of 

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those TV shows that covers a 
different topic with each 

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season. 
So for today, we'll be covering 

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the first season, all about 
Captain Sir John Franklin's lost

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expedition to the Arctic. 
The first season came out in 

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2018, so let's start by 
refreshing our memory with a 

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quick synopsis. 
The story unfolds in 1845 when 

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the Royal Navy sends HMS Erebus 
and HMS Terror into the Arctic 

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in search of the Northwest 
Passage. 

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What begins as a proud Imperial 
mission slowly turns into a 

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trapped, desperate fight for 
survival when the ships become 

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locked in ice and the men 
realize they may not make at 

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home. 
As the months pass, the crew 

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faces freezing temperatures, 
shrinking supplies, and 

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worsening morale. 
At the center of the story is 

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Sir John Franklin, the 
expedition leader who remains 

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committed to the original plan 
even as conditions grow worse. 

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His Second in Command franchise,
Crozier is more skeptical and 

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increasingly sees how dangerous 
their situation has become. 

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Around them, the crew wrestles 
with cold, hunger, illness and 

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the psychological strain of 
isolation while tensions rise 

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between officers and ordinary 
sailors. 

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Search parties, injuries, 
deaths, and mounting paranoia 

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among the men is fueled by a 
mysterious and supernatural 

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creature that seems to be 
stalking the men. 

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Joining me today to separate 
fact from fiction in the series 

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is Rich Napolitano, the host of 
an excellent podcast all about 

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maritime history called 
Shipwrecks and Sea Dogs, which 

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you can find at Shipwrecks and 
seadogs.com. 

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Before we chat with Rich, 
though, let's set up our game 

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for today's episode. 
Now if you're new to the show, 

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since Based on a True Story is 
all about separating fact from 

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fiction in the movies and TV 
shows, you'll get to practice 

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your skills at separating fact 
from fiction in this podcast 

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episode with a game of Two Trues
and a lie. 

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So I'm about to give you 3 facts
that we'll talk about in this 

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episode. 2 of those are actually
true and that means one of them 

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is just an all out lie. 
Are you ready? 

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OK, here they are #1 The two 
ships were provisioned for three

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years #2 We don't know if Sir 
John Franklin actually died 

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during the expedition #3 the 
crew wintered at Beachey Island.

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Got him. 
OK. 

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Now, as you're listening to our 
story today, see if you can 

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figure out which one of those is
the lie. 

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And if you're watching the video
version of this, you can see I'm

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holding up an envelope. 
The answer is inside this 

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envelope, and we'll open it up 
at the end of the episode to see

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how well you did. 
All right, now it's time to 

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connect with Rich Napolitano 
about the historical accuracy of

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the first season of AM CS The 
Terror. 

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There are 10 episodes in Season 
1 of AM CS The Terror, so we'll 

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be going through the key plot 
points in the whole season. 

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But before we do that, I always 
like to start with a ballpark 

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idea of how well ATV show 
depicts history. 

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And that's especially true for a
show like we're talking about 

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today, because the TV series The
Terror is based on a 2007 

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historical novel, also called 
The Terror by Dan Simmons. 

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So you have the TV series based 
on a historical novel, which is 

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then based loosely on history 
being a novel, still historical 

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novel. 
But with that in mind, if you 

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were to give just the TV Series 
A lot of grade for how well it 

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depicts the history, what would 
it get? 

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Well, you know, like many of 
your guests probably this is a 

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tough question to answer, but I 
will answer it. 

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If all things considered, I 
would probably give it AD. 

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Now that's not a bad thing 
because this is not intended to 

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be purely a historical depiction
of what actually happened. 

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Obviously there's a lot of 
supernatural kind of sci-fi 

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things going on in the story of 
The Terror season 1, and it 

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wasn't intended to be perfectly 
accurate. 

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It is really wrapping up an 
interesting story with with a 

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dramatic portrayal of of some 
kind of supernatural creature. 

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So I think that's really well 
done actually. 

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It's a fantastic series. 
I love it. 

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I really do. 
I've watched it several times. 

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I, I mean, when I, I, I wasn't 
aware of it until you, until you

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had mentioned it and going and 
watching that to, to prepare for

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this. 
If nothing else, the 

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cinematography of it, it's just 
beautiful. 

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Like the you get the vastness of
where they are and the 

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loneliness, the emptiness, this,
all of that element that I'm 

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sure we'll talk about throughout
this episode, but it's just they

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did an amazing job bringing it 
to screen. 

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And what's really impressive 
about it, and, and if I had to 

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give it a, if we could ignore 
all the supernatural stuff and 

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just focus on the story of the 
Franklin expedition, I would 

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probably give it AB because the 
ships, the HMS Erebus and Terror

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are fantastically recreated. 
Very painstaking detail goes 

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into those ships, the uniforms, 
the life on board the ships, the

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overall environment they're in. 
Everything's accurate. 

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It's really well done in, in 
that regard. 

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And there's a lot of details in 
the story as well that that 

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match up, or at least would be 
plausible since a lot of the 

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story, we really don't know, to 
be honest. 

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And of course we'll get into 
that. 

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But so there's a lot of details 
that really match up well to the

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story. 
So that's why if we could ignore

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the obvious supernatural stuff, 
I'd probably give it AB or B 

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plus. 
OK, I mean, that's really good 

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to know too, because I think 
that's something that it tells 

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me that the show creators made 
this conscious decision to add 

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something to it. 
But the parts where they're 

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focusing on just the, you know, 
the history side of what we do 

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know about the ships, they they 
did a good job. 

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They did their research. 
Absolutely they did, yes. 

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The first episode introduces us 
to the overall storyline 

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throughout the first season. 
I'd like to start with the quote

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at the beginning of the first 
episode of the first season, and

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this is a quote from the series.
In 18452, Royal Navy ships left 

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England in an attempt to finally
discover a navigable passage 

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through the Arctic. 
They were the most 

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technologically advanced ships 
of their day. 

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They were last seen by European 
whalers in Baffin Bay, awaiting 

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good conditions to enter the 
Arctic labyrinth. 

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Both ships then vanished. 
And that's the end of the quote 

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in the series. 
And while the text doesn't say 

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their names, we learned pretty 
quickly that those two ships are

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called HMS Erebus and HMS 
Terror. 

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It's the name of the series but 
but because it says both ships 

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vanished, that immediately makes
me think everything in the 

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series is just going to be 
made-up since it implies no one 

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knows what really happened. 
So can you set up the 

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expedition? 
And how do we know how much 

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really happened to the 
expedition if they simply 

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vanished like the series says 
happened? 

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So yeah, you're right, this, the
ships absolutely were the most 

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technologically advanced of the 
time. 

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And I'll, I'll get into the 
description of those ships, but 

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just in general, the that time 
it was this was the Victorian 

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era. 
This was a time of gentlemanly 

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pursuits, honor, integrity, 
adventure, bravery, courage, all

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of these kind of chivalric 
characteristics that men should 

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exhibit, especially aristocratic
gentleman. 

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And, and most naval officers 
were high born, as you would 

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say. 
So this was really a noble 

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effort. 
And this was also a time when 

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the wars, there were no wars 
going on. 

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The Napoleonic Wars were over. 
So the Royal Navy had been kind 

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of, I'm not sitting around, but 
they didn't have a lot to do. 

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So they were, they were really 
engaged in a lot of scientific 

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pursuits, venturing into the 
poles, trying to map areas that 

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had never been mapped before and
take magnetic readings and those

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kind of things, celestial 
observations. 

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It was really a time of 
curiosity and adventure and 

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discovery. 
So that really leads up to 

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what's happening now is that 
yes, they were. 

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There was a Northwest Passage 
that had been fabled for 

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centuries at this point. 
It would be economically 

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advantageous to be able to sail 
through the Canadian Arctic 

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Archipelago to Asia, very 
lucrative tea trade. 

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And up to that point, in order 
to get there, you know, the 

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Panama Canal and Suez Canal had 
not yet been constructed. 

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So they either had to go E 
around Africa all the way to the

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all the way to China or West 
around South America and through

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the Pacific Ocean. 
And both of them took many, 

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00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,400
many, many months. 
It it was a very dangerous 

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00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,680
journey. 
So finding a shorter passage was

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economically desirable. 
They also were, they wanted to 

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take some magnetic readings of 
the magnetic North Pole. 

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00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,200
And that was kind of a global 
effort that was going on at the 

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time too, that everybody was 
collecting this data to try to 

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understand or it's magnetism. 
So that was part of the 

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expedition as well. 
But by 1845, much of the 

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Canadian coast had been mapped, 
the northern Canadian mainland 

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coast, but not all of it. 
They had entered from the east 

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around Greenland and through 
Baffin Bay, Lancaster Sound, and

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they had, and they had entered 
through the West, through the 

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Bering Strait, around Alaska. 
So they had, they had charted a 

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lot of the coastline from the 
West. 

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00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,000
They had chartered a lot of 
coastline from the east. 

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But that middle section was 
still a bit of an unknown. 

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There was a, a kind of a BLOB 
right in the middle around what 

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is today called noon of it. 
And that's where this takes 

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place. 
This whole Franklin expedition 

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takes place, or at least the 
bulk of it. 

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00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,360
So much of that had not been 
mapped yet. 

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00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,960
So there was a lot of conjecture
or not really sure what to make 

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00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,400
of it or how to get through 
there. 

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00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,280
And at this point, they were 
hoping that this was going to be

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00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,920
it, that Franklin was going to 
be able to get it to, to be able

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00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,320
to go through and finally sail 
through a navigable passage to 

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00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,840
the Pacific Ocean. 
Sir John Barrow of the Admiralty

221
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,840
was one of the Champions of this
effort. 

222
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,600
And he really wished this to 
happen. 

223
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:49,000
So he put forth this expedition 
to to happen in 1845. 

224
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,040
He himself was 82 years old, so 
he wasn't going to lead it 

225
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,160
himself. 
He turned to Sir William, Sir 

226
00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,760
William Edward Perry, who was a 
veteran explorer, had actually 

227
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:07,120
been to the Arctic before, but 
he was also kind of exhausted 

228
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,320
and burnt out. 
So he he declined. 

229
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:16,640
And then they chose Sir James 
Clark Ross, who was very popular

230
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,520
at the time, had just finished 
an Antarctic expedition with HMS

231
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,520
Terror, with HMS Terror and 
Erebus, as a matter of fact, 

232
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,280
with Frances Crozier. 
But he also was exhausted and he

233
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,400
promised his wife he was done, 
that he was no longer going to 

234
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:37,280
do any polar expeditions. 
Then they turned James Fitz 

235
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,840
James and he was determined he 
was too young and too 

236
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,040
inexperienced. 
Then George Back was considered,

237
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,440
but he was too argumentative for
for Sir John Barrow's taste. 

238
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,880
Then Francis Crozier was 
considered, but he declined, 

239
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,520
believing that Ross should 
probably have it have have 

240
00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,680
command or or possibly Sir John 
Franklin. 

241
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,880
And in fact, that's who was 
chosen. 

242
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,480
Finally, not the first choice or
second choice or third choice or

243
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,720
even fourth or fourth choice, 
but somewhere down the line 

244
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,040
choice. 
Now he was 59 years old at this 

245
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,640
time, a bit out of shape as 
well, but he was highly 

246
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:23,920
respected and absolutely a 
veteran of Arctic expeditions 

247
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,840
and naval experience as well. 
He was at the Battle of New 

248
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,960
Orleans, he was at the Battle of
Trafalgar. 

249
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,600
He was very experienced and 
highly respected. 

250
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,760
He had already done 2 Arctic 
expeditions, 1819 and again in 

251
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,600
1827. 
One of them went well and one of

252
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,200
them didn't. 
We can talk more about that 

253
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,760
later, but he was no slouch, but
he was just kind of, he was, he 

254
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,640
was getting a little bit long in
the tooth and he wasn't in great

255
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,560
physical condition for such a 
hefty journey. 

256
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,200
So he wasn't really the first 
choice. 

257
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,880
So, so that kind of explains how
the expedition was, how it came 

258
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,560
about and why they were doing 
it. 

259
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,560
Now, as far as the ships 
themselves, the Erebus and 

260
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,400
Terror, these were excellent 
choices for Arctic expedition 

261
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,880
because they were former bomb 
ships. 

262
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:24,440
Now basically these were vessels
with a flat platform essentially

263
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,800
with mortars, you know, 
artillery attached to them. 

264
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,240
They were they, they were meant 
for launching high arching 

265
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,320
artillery on to shore. 
And because of that they were 

266
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,920
really well constructed, very 
sturdy, very strong to withstand

267
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,320
that that kickback from the 
mortars. 

268
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:49,800
Erebus was built in 1813, served
at the Battle of Baltimore, 

269
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,120
actually during the Battle of or
during the bombing of Fort 

270
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:58,160
McHenry, when the American 
National Anthem was written by 

271
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:04,319
the Star Spangled Banner. 
So it was there, and Erebus and 

272
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,880
Terror both serve in the 
Antarctic Antarctic Expedition 

273
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:13,359
with Sir James Clark Ross. 
Erebus was built in 1826, also a

274
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,200
bomb vessel, but both of these 
ships were refitted, 

275
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:23,520
strengthened, reinforced with 
iron plates on its hull, and 

276
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,000
given some of the most 
technologically advanced 

277
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,600
equipment. 
They even had locomotives like 

278
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,760
trained locomotives to provide 
power for their steam engines so

279
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,080
they could. 
They had a a single screw or 

280
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,760
propeller as well as sails, so 
that gave them some extra power 

281
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,000
to try to breakthrough the ice 
if needed. 

282
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,520
And it also had this ingenious 
system for heating the the 

283
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,000
locomotives generated this power
to produce the steam, which was 

284
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,440
was then kind of the excess 
steam was used to heat the ship 

285
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,920
internally. 
Yeah. 

286
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,960
So these were really well built 
ships and and ready for action, 

287
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,040
really well provisioned. 
It was a very well planned out 

288
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,000
expedition. 
They were given three years of 

289
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,040
provisions, food, water, tons 
and tons of food. 

290
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,800
We could go on and on about all 
the list of things, but 

291
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,800
libraries. 1200 volume library 
on the Terror and 1700 or so on 

292
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:34,280
the Erebus. 
This expedition was ready to 

293
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,200
rock. 
Fully prepared, excellent crew, 

294
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,360
experienced captain, experienced
officers. 

295
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,840
It just didn't work out. 
What has has you gone through 

296
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,160
the, the, the list of people 
that they picked or some maybe 

297
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,320
didn't want to or the Admiralty 
thought they weren't right. 

298
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,040
It kind of made me wonder, was 
this maybe not just this 

299
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,080
expedition, but in in general, 
an expedition to the unknown 

300
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,640
like that? 
What was it something that they 

301
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,960
wanted to do or was it more they
were ordered to do? 

302
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,880
And maybe not that excite well 
get into the morale that that 

303
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,200
will come into play later. 
But this is kind of making me 

304
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:19,760
lead that think about that is 
with with Franklin being so low 

305
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,840
in the list of, you know, 
choices. 

306
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,400
It's kind of like I just really 
don't want to be here, you know,

307
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,680
I mean, that could lead to that 
sort of mentality, I would 

308
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,280
imagine. 
But maybe I'm wrong. 

309
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,680
I don't know. 
Generally speaking, they all 

310
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,720
wanted to be there, at least the
officers. 

311
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,080
This was a really excellent 
opportunity to advance and it 

312
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:45,600
was a very high profile 
expedition and it was a chance 

313
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,160
to get excellent experience, 
earn a lot of money. 

314
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,360
They were well paid and and if 
everything went well, a lot of 

315
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:56,840
times when they get they got 
back, they were given some kind 

316
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,520
of reward monetarily from from 
the government or from the 

317
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,080
Admiralty. 
Sometimes some of the more 

318
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:10,000
higher performing members would 
be given awards by made a fellow

319
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,320
of the Royal Society, those kind
of things. 

320
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,480
So it really was a great 
opportunity, especially for the 

321
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,680
officers. 
Captain James Fitz James of the 

322
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,160
Erebus was young at the time. 
He didn't have any Arctic 

323
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,200
expedition. 
Experience. 

324
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,760
So he was really keen on 
learning. 

325
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:30,880
He was going to he was actually 
put in charge of all the 

326
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,200
magnetic readings and Crozier 
was meant to teach him. 

327
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,440
Crozier was an expert at at the 
magnetic observations and 

328
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:47,120
Franklin wanted Crozier to teach
Fitz James, which which is an 

329
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:49,680
important detail for, for 
something that we're going to 

330
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,960
talk about later. 
But yeah, this this was 

331
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,280
definitely something that they 
were looking forward to. 

332
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,840
Crozier had just also returned 
from the Antarctic like Sir 

333
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,200
James Clark Ross. 
So he was a little bit 

334
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,000
exhausted, probably a lot 
exhausted, maybe not too 

335
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,560
terribly keen on going, but 
there were some other factors 

336
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,880
involved that's will be 
pertinent later that I'll talk 

337
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,120
about. 
OK, well, well, now that we have

338
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,560
a better idea of the expedition,
if we head back to the series, 

339
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,320
we start to get a foreboding 
sense of danger with the concept

340
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,720
in the first episode, it's 
highlighted by the title of the 

341
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,320
episode called Go For Broke, and
we learned what that means when 

342
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,680
the expedition's flagship, HMS 
Erebus sustains ice damage, 

343
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,960
causing her to run a lot slower.
And then the expedition, second 

344
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,000
in command, Captain Francis 
Crozier from Terror proposes to 

345
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,600
the expedition's leader, Captain
Sir John Franklin on Erebus, 

346
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,720
that they abandoned the damaged 
Erebus and concentrate all their

347
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,840
resources on taking terror 
through the open channels in the

348
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,800
ice while they're still there, 
since it's kind of a race 

349
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,680
against time before the ice 
freezes around them. 

350
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,000
So this go for broke idea is 
what the series proposes. 

351
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,520
But then according to the 
series, it's rejected by 

352
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,440
Franklin, who insists that 
they're going to stick to the 

353
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,800
original plan, both ships trying
to get through the icy waters 

354
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,960
together. 
And then of course we find out 

355
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,000
what happens the expedition as 
the series goes on. 

356
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,080
But we do know that there was 
this idea to leave the damaged 

357
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,960
Erebus behind. 
Do we know if that was actually 

358
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,080
something, this go for broke 
concept, leaving Erebus behind 

359
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:27,280
and just going with the terror 
instead? 

360
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,400
Was that something that actually
happened? 

361
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:35,000
Well, the short answer is we 
have no idea, but I think a 

362
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,480
little bit of back story is 
needed here before I answer that

363
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,000
more fully. 
They they left England and went 

364
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,400
to Orkney first to resupply then
around Greenland and that's the 

365
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,640
last time they were seen and 
that was that would have been 

366
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,360
June of of 1845. 
That is actually the last 

367
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,880
anybody really knew of that. 
It was the last time they were 

368
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,440
seen. 
After that point, after June of 

369
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:08,120
1845, we really don't know much 
except for one very important 

370
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,120
document. 
And that document is called the 

371
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:15,920
Victory Point Note. 
It was found in 1859 by Sir 

372
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:21,560
Francis Leopold Mcclintock. 
And it tells us what happened 

373
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,200
before this point that we're 
talking about in the series 

374
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,320
because it the the series. 
Well, like I said before, I love

375
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:30,320
it. 
It's really well done. 

376
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,080
It doesn't talk about any of 
this in in the series. 

377
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,080
And it's, it's pretty pertinent 
before that, that point where 

378
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,600
they got stuck in the ice, they 
had that first winter, they 

379
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,840
sailed through Baffin Bay, 
through Lancaster Sound, reached

380
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,440
a point in the winter of 1845 
where it wasn't going to be 

381
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,280
feasible anymore because 
obviously in the winter, 

382
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,480
everything freezes up. 
So they do most of their 

383
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,200
journeying in the in the summer 
months. 

384
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,000
So they spent the winter at a 
tiny spit of land called Beechy 

385
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,720
Island. 
This is the winter of 1845 to 

386
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,800
1846 and we know that because of
this victory point note that was

387
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,440
found by Mcclintock much later, 
obviously in 1859. 

388
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:18,240
This note was found in a Cairn, 
a stone structure basically on 

389
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,640
King William Island far to the 
South, but it says 28th of May 

390
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,080
1847. 
HMS ships Erebus and Terror 

391
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,480
wintered in the ice at at Beachy
Island and he provides the 

392
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,520
latitude after having ascended 
Wellington Channel to latitude 

393
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,720
77 and returned to the West side
of Cornwallis Island. 

394
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,280
Sir John Franklin commanding 
Allwell Party consisting of two 

395
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,120
officers and six men left the 
ships on Monday 24th May 1847. 

396
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,040
Signed Graham Gore, Lieutenant 
and Charles F Devoe, mate. 

397
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,240
Now, this is going to be in a 
really important document, but 

398
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,160
from this document we know 
everything that happened. 

399
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,640
Not everything, but we know 
their general route before they 

400
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,160
got stuck in the ice, that they 
overwintered at Beachy Island. 

401
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,400
And interestingly, this note 
says they wintered in 1846 to 

402
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,560
1847. 
That was wrong. 

403
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,840
They were just wrong. 
They just got the date wrong. 

404
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:22,040
It was definitely 1845 to 1846. 
And we know that because of a 

405
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,920
subsequent note that we'll talk 
about. 

406
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,480
The second part of this note 
that we'll talk about later. 

407
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,840
So we know that they were stuck 
on on Beachy Island for the 

408
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:21,320
winter and when when spring 
came, they started heading 

409
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,760
South. 
They they headed South through 

410
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,480
Peel Sound, which is a, you 
know, the Arctic, the Canadian 

411
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,920
Arctic Archipelago is just this 
vast maze of little islands and 

412
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,440
channels and straight. 
So I won't get too, too caught 

413
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,840
up in the weeds with that, but 
just just picture them 

414
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,960
navigating through all these 
little channels and things until

415
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,920
they finally come out in front 
of King William Island. 

416
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,560
This is where they get stuck in 
the ice. 

417
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,160
But there's a really important 
factor in why they got stuck in 

418
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,880
the ice, because at that time, 
like I said, most of this area 

419
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,880
had been charted, but not all of
it. 

420
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,280
And that portion of King William
Island is right adjacent to a 

421
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,520
peninsula called Boothia. 
And the Admiralty at that time 

422
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,080
believed that King William 
Island was connected, that it 

423
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,320
was a peninsula, and they 
actually just called it King 

424
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,600
William Land on their maps. 
So Franklin didn't think he 

425
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,600
could. 
He could turned to the east side

426
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,520
of the island because he thought
it wasn't an island that it that

427
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,480
he would be blocked. 
So he turned to the West into 

428
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,280
the much larger Victoria 
straight. 

429
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:35,080
This happens to be a place where
a, where really large ice floes 

430
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,920
get blown down from polar winds 
from the north down into this 

431
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,280
kind of natural collecting point
as kind of a, a, a dead end 

432
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,440
really for, for all of this ice.
And it just stacks up and stacks

433
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,160
up into these huge ice ridges. 
And it's really thick sea ice, 

434
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,240
not just flat ice like on a, a 
pond in Pennsylvania or 

435
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,680
something. 
You know, it's, it's really 

436
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,800
crazy thick ice and, and stacked
up ridges. 

437
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,520
So that's where they get stuck. 
But it was because he didn't 

438
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,520
think that he could get through 
to the east side of King 

439
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,680
William, King William Land, as 
he called it. 

440
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,480
So that's where they get stuck. 
So this idea of going for broke,

441
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,600
back to your question, we don't 
know if if Crozier said that or,

442
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,040
or wanted to do that, he may 
have, but we we simply don't 

443
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,560
know. 
We don't have any of the ship's 

444
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,360
logs. 
We don't know any of the 

445
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,040
conversations that happened. 
However, this is where I think 

446
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:37,040
it's plausible, where where I 
think the the the writers did a 

447
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,600
really good job in weaving and 
things that actually did happen.

448
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,360
Some other circumstances that 
make this plausible. 

449
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:51,560
For example, Crozier wasn't 
entirely in a great mood on this

450
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,720
expedition, so I think they do a
good job of showing him as a 

451
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,120
little bit surly. 
He is in the. 

452
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,400
Series he is, he's very, he's 
surly among other things, but 

453
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,960
he, he had, he, like I said 
before, he's exhausted already. 

454
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,880
He, he, he had not been long 
since he got back from the 

455
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,040
Antarctic. 
So he was he was pretty worn 

456
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,120
out. 
He also really wasn't terribly 

457
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,640
sociable. 
He wrote in a letter before they

458
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,320
left Greenland, before the the 
last time they were seen. 

459
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,000
He sent back some letters on the
supply ship HMS Rattler. 

460
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,920
He says I cannot bear going on 
board Erebus. 

461
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,960
Sir John is very kind and would 
have me there dining every day 

462
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,440
if I would go. 
He has Fitz, James and two 

463
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,960
officers every day. 
This is shown in the in the 

464
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,720
series of Franklin being a 
little unhappy that Crozier 

465
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,840
won't come have dinner with him 
because Crozier just kind of 

466
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,320
grew tired of it. 
He he didn't like having to go 

467
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,960
back and forth on the boats and 
the cold and the ice. 

468
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,440
He was a little bit tired of 
hearing John Franklin's stories 

469
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,720
about how he was mistreated in 
Van Diemen's Land, that that's 

470
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,240
modern day Tasmania. 
John Franklin happened to be 

471
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,480
governor of, of Van Diemen's 
Land prior to this expedition, 

472
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,600
and it didn't go well for him. 
And he felt like he was shafted 

473
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,080
and all the stuff. 
So he was always talking about 

474
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,840
that. 
And I think Crozier was a little

475
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,360
bit just like, oh, God. 
OK, all right. 

476
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,960
And we know this. 
Yeah. 

477
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,760
Same story again every every 
night at dinner. 

478
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,480
And we know this because we have
some of Crozier's letters that 

479
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,120
he wrote back home before they 
disappeared, before they left 

480
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,600
Greenland. 
He also questioned some of 

481
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,400
Franklin's decisions. 
He he wrote a letter to Sir 

482
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,720
James Clark Ross. 
And he says, what I fear is that

483
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,960
we're leaving so late, we'll 
have no time to look around and 

484
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,320
judge for ourselves, but we'll 
blunder into the ice and make a 

485
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,760
second 1824 of it. 
James, I wish you were here. 

486
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,520
I would have no doubt as to our 
pursuing the proper course. 

487
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,240
Like I said, he really thought 
James Clark Ross should have 

488
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:03,680
been in charge of this 
expedition. 

489
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,320
And he's referring to 1824 
because that was Franklin's 

490
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,160
second Arctic expedition, or 
yeah, that was his. 

491
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,400
That was the beginning of his 
second Arctic expedition. 

492
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,280
But his first one, Franklin's 
first one was a total disaster. 

493
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,000
They had eaten. 
They had 11 of 22 men died. 

494
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,840
There was there were definitely 
cannibalism. 

495
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,360
One man was murdered to to be 
eaten and then that man was 

496
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,760
murdered by an officer for, for 
the cannibalism. 

497
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,720
It's it's a like, there's so 
many stories within the story. 

498
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,760
So Crozier had a little bit of, 
of, let's say, not animosity. 

499
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,320
He really did respect John 
Franklin, but I think he was 

500
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,400
just a little bit a little bit 
done with with all of the drama.

501
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,040
And happening so early on too, I
could imagine that would only 

502
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,720
grow and grow and grow and 
you're stuck together. 

503
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,000
And I mean, they have separate 
ships, but you know, still 

504
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:08,640
confined spaces. 
Very confined in that in this 

505
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,720
series too, when he's talking to
Crozier, when Crozier is talking

506
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,360
to Franklin about abandoning the
Erebus and everybody get on the 

507
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,600
terror and getting out of there.
He's also at odds with James 

508
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,440
Fitz James quite a bit. 
Now we also know from Crozier's 

509
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,720
letters that he was a little bit
maybe jealous or at least had 

510
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,360
some animosity because Franklin 
put Fitz James in charge of all 

511
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,920
the magnetic observations. 
Crozier was miffed by that. 

512
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,520
He had so much more experience. 
He he wrote again to James Clark

513
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,320
Ross. 
I find by the instructions that 

514
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,400
Fitz James is appointed to 
superintend the magnetic 

515
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,440
observations. 
I will therefore take just so 

516
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,160
much bother them as may amuse 
without considering myself as 

517
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,040
one of the staff. 
So a a little bit of Victorian 

518
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,960
era snark there, I think. 
So he was a little bit miffed 

519
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,280
about that. 
Plus he had been. 

520
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,880
This is another little bit of 
drama that's portrayed in the 

521
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,679
show. 
Crozier was pining for his love 

522
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,199
Sofia Craycroft. 
And they do show Miss Craycroft 

523
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:29,080
in the in the show, she was John
Franklin's niece and they had 

524
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,080
met in Van Diemen's Land, 
Tasmania. 

525
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,760
And Crozier proposed to her and 
she rejected him for being too 

526
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,679
low born and just a, just a, a 
mariner and with not much 

527
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,320
potential. 
He proposed to her again later 

528
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,600
and she rejected him again. 
And Crozier kind of thought, 

529
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,040
well, if I do this expedition 
with her uncle, Sir John 

530
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,760
Franklin, and maybe I can win 
her back, you know, maybe I can 

531
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,200
win her heart by showing her my 
bravery. 

532
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,000
So that's probably the reason 
why he really, or at least a 

533
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,280
good part of the reason why he 
went on this expedition. 

534
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:12,640
I think they alluded to that in 
the Series A little bit too, 

535
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,120
yeah. 
Yeah, yeah. 

536
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,520
I mean, he was, he was 
definitely grumpy. 

537
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,120
And that's very plausible. 
We don't know obviously, but it 

538
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,840
is very plausible that he was 
not in a great mood. 

539
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,000
They, they show him as an 
alcoholic as well. 

540
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,040
There's no evidence of that 
whatsoever. 

541
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,400
He may have drank just as much 
as any other officer on the 

542
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,720
ship, I suppose, but there's no 
historical evidence that he was 

543
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:43,960
a, a drunk. 
But it certainly adds to the 

544
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,760
drama. 
And I, I really like actually 

545
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,960
that they make him this. 
It's kind of brilliant that he's

546
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,760
a bitter about Fitz James, a 
little bit at odds with Franklin

547
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:02,040
and just this lovesick moppy sad
sack, you know? 

548
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,800
Anyway, so we don't know if you 
wanted to go for broke or not, 

549
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,480
but I think it's a really useful
literary device to to throw in 

550
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,280
there to add some some interest 
to the story. 

551
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,800
You mentioned his name with 
Graham Gore. 

552
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,200
And if we move to episode 2, the
ships are stuck in the ice. 

553
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,960
So they send out search parties 
to look for leads in the ice. 

554
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,440
One of the officers and one of 
the parties, Lieutenant Graham 

555
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,040
Gore, is killed by a bear, or at
least they think it's a bear. 

556
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,600
It's a massive creature. 
They don't really get a good 

557
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,800
look at it in the series, but 
what they do is shoot at it. 

558
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,920
And instead of hitting that, 
they end up hitting someone else

559
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,800
out there on the ice with them. 
It turns out to be a net select 

560
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,000
shaman. 
They take him back to the ships 

561
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,080
along with his daughter, but he 
succumbs to his injuries. 

562
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,520
And then the shaman's daughter 
is obviously upset. 

563
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,440
But through it all, the men are 
trying to figure out what this 

564
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,520
creature was that killed 
Lieutenant Gore. 

565
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,480
And the Netslik woman calls the 
creature a tune Buck and says 

566
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,560
that she has to control it now 
that her father has died, which 

567
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,080
seems to imply that there's this
supernatural element on the 

568
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,000
horizon here. 
We'll circle back to some of 

569
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,880
that supernatural plot point 
later on, but I'm curious about 

570
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,680
how all of this started with the
ships getting stuck in the ice, 

571
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,600
probably because they couldn't 
move fast enough due to the 

572
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,080
damaged Erebus slowing them 
down. 

573
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,400
We, we talked about a little bit
in the first episode, and then 

574
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,160
now that Lieutenant Gore is is 
dead, there's potentially 

575
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,280
something worse on the horizon 
with this supernatural element. 

576
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,800
But can you unravel how much 
this this sequence of 

577
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,640
unfortunate events actually 
happened? 

578
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,920
Yeah, obviously the there's the 
whole creature shaman lady 

579
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,360
silence thing. 
That's that didn't happen. 

580
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,080
Well, maybe it did, I don't 
know. 

581
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,760
I mean, obviously that's that's 
part of the supernatural lore to

582
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,800
the to the drama. 
But as far as what actually did 

583
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,040
happen, Lieutenant Graham Gore 
did lead a search party of eight

584
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,760
men with mate Charles, Charles 
Devoe. 

585
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:07,080
And they, they walked from the 
beset ships in the ice, just 

586
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,040
sitting there trapped in 
Victoria straight. 

587
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,880
They walked, you know, 10 miles 
or 15 miles or however it was 

588
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,200
about that much across the ice 
to King William Island to the 

589
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:23,280
very northwest tip of it. 
And it was there that they left 

590
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,080
the victory point. 
Note that I read to you earlier.

591
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,960
They, they jot it. 
It's like a standard Admiralty 

592
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,640
form. 
It's like a it's, it's basically

593
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,280
like a form letter that they, it
has a lot of standard 

594
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,560
information and then a place for
a, a customized message which 

595
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,400
they hand wrote. 
And that's where they say we, we

596
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,360
wintered at Beachey Island. 
All is well, John Franklin in 

597
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,920
command, you know, basically 
really important information 

598
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,240
actually, because they give 
specific latitude and longitude,

599
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:55,840
which is useful later to know 
where they were. 

600
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,560
So they did actually do that. 
They did, they did go out in 

601
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:06,520
search of open water, possibly 
game seal something that they 

602
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,920
could shoot and eat, but they 
didn't find anything. 

603
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,480
But they left, they left this 
note in a Cairn and then they 

604
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,680
traveled a bit further South 
Down King William Island on the 

605
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,120
West Coast. 
And they left an identical note 

606
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,520
with the same exact message at a
point that's now aptly named 

607
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,960
Gore Point. 
So we know that they did that 

608
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,200
for sure. 
But they, they traveled several 

609
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:39,840
days, didn't see anything. 
And, and after that, we really 

610
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,760
don't know specifically of what 
happened to them. 

611
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:48,040
Most likely they returned to the
ship, you know, no, no attack by

612
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,520
a creature or polar bear, 
anything. 

613
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,720
It's possible they could have 
died on the way back. 

614
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,360
We don't really know, but we 
know they died eventually. 

615
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,280
But that actually did happen as 
far as what they they did 

616
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,560
venture out onto the ice and 
leave that note and. 

617
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,840
You know what happened to those 
men specifically? 

618
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,160
Hopefully they didn't get eaten,
but that's a that. 

619
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,320
But that note's really important
because that's really, that's 

620
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,880
the only first hand account that
we have of what may have 

621
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,760
happened to them. 
Everything else is just kind of 

622
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,280
conjecture. 
But they left the second note 

623
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,360
you said too that was identical,
which even even being identical 

624
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:30,600
with the information on be 
different. 

625
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,720
But that, to me, tells me that 
they made it back from the first

626
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,040
expedition, you know, venturing 
out onto the ice successfully. 

627
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,720
So at least what we saw in the 
series didn't happen. 

628
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,680
Yeah, right. 
I mean the, the the obvious, the

629
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,520
obvious creature attack was, was
part of the the fictional 

630
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,840
element, but at this point they 
they were they had not abandoned

631
00:40:53,840 --> 00:41:00,040
the ships yet It's May of 1847. 
They were still hoping to break 

632
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:05,160
free in the summer and sail S to
Simpson straight and and get out

633
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:10,280
of there. 
But 2 summers in a or two, yeah,

634
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,640
2 summers in a row, the ice was 
still too thick and they were 

635
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,400
trapped. 
So, you know, they 19 months in 

636
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:26,440
total, they, they were trapped 
on these ships even though it's,

637
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:33,360
it's crazy the amount of of 
misery and it just not only 

638
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,480
uncomfortable, but, you know, 
just, it's hard to keep up 

639
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,160
morale. 
And, you know, I think we're 

640
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,160
we'll probably talk about that 
too. 

641
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,920
But yeah, stuck in the ice for 
19 months. 

642
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,720
Yeah. 
I mean, it's, it's it's a form 

643
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:57,200
of prison. 
I mean, basically, you know, I 

644
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,520
mean, you, it's, we think of, 
you know, isolation is, is a 

645
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,080
form of torture too. 
And so you have a mixture of 

646
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,480
these two things going on at the
same time, not even to mention 

647
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,560
the, the weather and the cold 
and the, you know, man, yeah, 

648
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,400
that's I, I couldn't imagine. 
I'm, I'm, I'm happy to hear 

649
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,640
central heat in there. 
Scurvy free. 

650
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,960
Scurvy free. 
Well, I have a feeling that as 

651
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,880
we continue through the the 
series that we're going to lead 

652
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,840
further and further into the 
probably didn't happen. 

653
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,960
And a great example of that is 
in the third episode, because we

654
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,560
see that the crew 
unceremoniously throwing the 

655
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,000
shaman's body down this fire 
hole in the ice and and then set

656
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,360
up a trap to try to kill this 
tumbach creature. 

657
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,160
And as if in response, the 
creature attacks the men and 

658
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,320
drags the leader of the 
expedition, Captain Franklin, 

659
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,240
across the ice and throws his 
body down that same fire hole 

660
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,160
that they threw the shaman down.
Do we know if that's how Sir 

661
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,280
John Franklin actually died? 
Most certainly not. 

662
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,960
That's not how he died. 
A really cool scene though. 

663
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,200
I. 
Have to say, I mean it's fitting

664
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,000
for the scene. 
Well done. 

665
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,000
It was pretty exciting, 
terrifying watching him slide 

666
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,640
down that hole into into the 
abyss. 

667
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,040
But no, he we. 
Here's what we know about the 

668
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,680
death of John Franklin. 
It is from the second portion of

669
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:31,560
the Victory point note, which we
will, I, I think it'll be better

670
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,480
to talk about it in detail in a,
in a bit. 

671
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:38,440
But we know that John Franklin 
died on the 11th of June 1847. 

672
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,440
That's all we know that he died.
No information about how he 

673
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,280
died, where he died or where he 
was buried or if he was buried. 

674
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,600
That's it. 
That's all we know is that he 

675
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,280
died on the 11th of June 1847. 
I feel like if he died the way 

676
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,320
the series showed, they probably
would have written that a little

677
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,640
more detail about what happened.
Yeah, right. 

678
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,000
Much more exciting in the show. 
Chances are he died in his bed 

679
00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:06,920
or on a surgeon's table or 
something, you know? 

680
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,360
So that's really all we know 
about Sir John Franklin's death.

681
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,760
If we go back to the series, 
we're up to episode 4. 

682
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:18,120
It's November of 1847 in the 
series and it shows us back in 

683
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,840
England. 
We see Lady Jane Franklin, Sir 

684
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,760
John's wife, or well, I guess 
now widow, although she doesn't 

685
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,680
know that in the series. 
But that's all happening 

686
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,280
thousand mile away, so there's 
no way that she would know. 

687
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,800
The lack of word from her 
husband, though, leads Lady Jane

688
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,120
in the series to try to organize
a search party, but the 

689
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,320
Admiralty isn't concerned yet. 
They tell her that if they 

690
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,720
haven't heard anything by 1850, 
that's when they're going to 

691
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:41,440
search. 
This is one of those moments, as

692
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,920
I was watching it, it really 
have to put ourselves in that 

693
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,400
historical context because these
days you wouldn't wait three 

694
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,600
years before even organizing a 
search party. 

695
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,040
But then of course, they didn't 
have the means of instant global

696
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,200
communication like we do now. 
So can you help us get into that

697
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,520
historical context? 
Was it normal for explorers to 

698
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,000
go years without any word at 
all? 

699
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,400
And for Sir John Franklin's 
expedition specifically, was 

700
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,240
there any communication back 
home more or less what was 

701
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:11,520
considered normal at the time? 
Communication was virtually 

702
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,560
impossible for these 
expeditions, so it so yes, it 

703
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:21,240
was normal to go 234 years even 
not knowing anything, having no 

704
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:24,120
communication. 
It was very common. 

705
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:28,360
This expedition was expected to 
last at least two years, 

706
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,320
probably 3. 
They were provisioned for three 

707
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,680
years and just for example, 
Franklin's first Arctic 

708
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:40,840
expedition was from 19/19 to 
19/22 and that went horribly 

709
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:46,080
wrong, as I mentioned earlier. 
In fact, his they resorted to 

710
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,880
eating their their leather 
boots. 

711
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,200
So he actually earned the 
nickname The Man Who Ate His 

712
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:52,680
Boots. 
That was in the series too. 

713
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:58,400
That actually is true. 
His second expedition was almost

714
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,640
three years, about 2 1/2 years. 
The Ross Antarctic Expedition 

715
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:09,440
was four years, 1839 to 1843. 
And and so this expedition 

716
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:14,160
certainly was expected to take 
two to two years, at least three

717
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,560
years most likely. 
So hearing nothing in two years,

718
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,720
the Admiralty was nonplussed. 
We should say they, they, they 

719
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:24,600
thought, they didn't think 
anything of it like this is 

720
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:27,960
normal, because the only way 
they would get any information 

721
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,840
is if they happen to pass 
another ship and could pass on 

722
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,080
some letters that they would 
then take off, take on to 

723
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,240
England. 
But in that part of the world, 

724
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:38,920
there were no other ships. 
The only ships that would be 

725
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,280
there would be from the 
Admiralty. 

726
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,080
And they knew they didn't have 
any other ships there. 

727
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,880
So there was no way to 
communicate. 

728
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:52,240
They would have to reach an 
outpost like Fort Resolution or,

729
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,480
you know, from the Hudson's Bay 
Company. 

730
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:57,200
And that was, well, to the 
South. 

731
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,360
So there was no way to get any 
word back. 

732
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,360
So obviously, Lady Jane 
Franklin's a, you know, she 

733
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:04,760
wants some news. 
She's worried. 

734
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,960
Totally understandable. 
Yeah, Admiralty wasn't having 

735
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,240
it. 
And and Lady Jane Franklin had a

736
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:19,480
lot of a lot of influence. 
She was a very respected, noble 

737
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,160
woman. 
And so it wasn't that they were 

738
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,680
just dismissing her out of hand.
Even the fact that she had their

739
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,200
attention was pretty impressive.
But they weren't worried. 

740
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,800
By 1848 they were worried, so 
that's really when they agreed. 

741
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,600
OK, we'll we'll send some ships.
But not until three years had 

742
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,320
passed. 
That makes me wonder, You're 

743
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,320
talking about some of these 
other expeditions that were 

744
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,320
taking, you know, 3 or even even
four years in Ross's case, but 

745
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,840
they were this expedition, 
Franklin's being provisioned for

746
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,560
three years. 
That sounds to me like they 

747
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,440
didn't add any buffer room at 
all. 

748
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,080
Like everything has to go 
according to plan because we 

749
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,240
expect this to take three years 
and we're giving you three years

750
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:10,200
worth of provisions. 
Like there's no extra. 

751
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,000
Well, you know, if it takes 3 
1/2 or 4 years, you know, you, 

752
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,640
it just seems like I don't know 
for something like that. 

753
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,120
It again, it's, it's that 
historical context of, you know,

754
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,040
I'm thinking now if I take a 
trip somewhere, I'm going to 

755
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,520
bring extra batteries for my 
phone. 

756
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,960
Like, you know, it's the little 
things like that. 

757
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,120
I might not need it, but I want 
to bring it just in case, you 

758
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:30,320
know, I want to have that little
buffer. 

759
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,600
But I don't know, it's just 
again, and something that's 

760
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,400
really hard to wrap my mind 
around of just this is a 

761
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:36,960
three-year expedition. 
You're going to have three years

762
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,760
worth of provisions. 
Good luck. 

763
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,360
Well, I'll tell you what the 
backup plan is. 

764
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:47,600
The the way that they provided A
buffer as you said is a they 

765
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,240
just stretched rations so. 
Just don't eat. 

766
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,320
Yeah, basically you eat less. 
That's that's what they did. 

767
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,320
So if if necessary they would 
reduce rations to three quarter 

768
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,400
rations, then half rations and 
on down the line until they ran 

769
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,200
out. 
I guess we do see that some in 

770
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,040
this series they start they they
start provisioning some of that 

771
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:08,960
a little bit more too. 
So I guess maybe that was 

772
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:13,000
standard protocol. 
It was in fact they said if they

773
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,200
if they stretch the rations they
could make it 5 years. 

774
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:17,360
Oh wow. 
OK. 

775
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:23,920
And there's always the, the 
chance of hunting some, some 

776
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,440
animals or catching fish. 
And they did to some degree do 

777
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,400
that. 
But that part of, of the 

778
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,240
Canadian Arctic is pretty bare 
of, of wildlife. 

779
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:37,200
There's there's really nothing 
there fish. 

780
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,320
But, you know, they weren't 
experienced ice fishermen, so 

781
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,360
there really wasn't a whole lot 
of fresh food for them. 

782
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:45,760
They had to rely on what they 
had. 

783
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,520
There was something else that 
stood out to me in in episode 4 

784
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,440
with Captain Crozier, he orders 
one of the crew to beat West, 

785
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,080
the title of the episode 
Punished as a boy. 

786
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,840
Basically, that means being 
lashed across his naked butt for

787
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,480
arguing. 
But that's a, that's a 

788
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,680
punishment that I would assume 
be done during normal times. 

789
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,640
And even though there's nothing 
about this situation that really

790
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,320
seems normal to me, the mere 
fact that they're doing 

791
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,880
punishments like this tells me 
that perhaps the crew also 

792
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,600
doesn't think that they're in 
such dire straits yet. 

793
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,440
Maybe the, you know, the 
Admiralty back in, in England 

794
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:17,960
apparently isn't too worried 
about it. 

795
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:19,520
Seems like maybe the crew isn't 
either. 

796
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,200
Was there a point around here 
where the expedition itself 

797
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,320
started to feel like maybe we're
in need of rescue? 

798
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,280
Like there's, it's been a couple
years and we've got a year left 

799
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,120
of provisions. 
Maybe we need to start doing 

800
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:36,840
something. 
Yeah, I I think that the by the 

801
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:42,560
winter of 1846 to our yeah, the 
winter of 184647, their their 

802
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,320
first winter stuck down in 
Victoria Street. 

803
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:52,320
I would assume that the crew, 
the, the lower level crew were 

804
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,120
probably getting a little 
worried, uncomfortable, cold, 

805
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,240
hungry, you know, even even 
though these ships were, were 

806
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:05,200
extremely advanced for the time,
they were still ships and the 

807
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,760
quarters are cramped and, you 
know, the, the, the regular 

808
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,920
crewmen didn't have great 
accommodations. 

809
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:17,040
They slept mostly in hammocks, 
possibly a, a berth on the side 

810
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,720
of the ship, you know, like 
tiny, basically the size of your

811
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:24,760
body if you're lucky. 
So they were probably getting 

812
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,840
pretty worried at this point. 
The officers, on the other hand,

813
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,040
even if they were worried, we're
probably keeping it to 

814
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,200
themselves that because, because
remember, this was, this was 

815
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,040
really a time of honor and 
integrity and, and you had to 

816
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:44,520
act like a gentleman. 
The the attitude at that time of

817
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:50,760
a Royal Navy officer was that 
they believe that they needed to

818
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:55,160
understand the men, the crew, 
provide for them, keep them 

819
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,000
safe, protect them and bring 
them home alive, almost like a 

820
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:03,360
parental obligation. 
In exchange for that they 

821
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:09,480
demanded 100% obedience. 
So it, it was a kind of a, a 

822
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,360
different way of, of thinking 
about it then then we would 

823
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:18,200
think of a military operation. 
Now obedience, sure, but in a 

824
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,920
different way. 
So, so these officers had to 

825
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,160
keep a good, good, good show of 
it. 

826
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,560
They had to show the men that 
they were staying positive and 

827
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,200
that everything would be OK, 
even if in the back of their 

828
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:38,920
mind they were worried too. 
Chances are there was a little 

829
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,840
bit of of trouble here and 
there, but lies there would be 

830
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:46,240
on any ship. 
Franklin, before he died anyway,

831
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:50,360
would have had a pretty good 
command of the men because he 

832
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,520
was well respected, even if 
Crozier was getting a little bit

833
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:59,440
tired of him. 
Generally speaking, the men 

834
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,560
loved John Franklin. 
He was good to them. 

835
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,840
He was respectful of them. 
He did not believe in corporal 

836
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,280
punishment. 
So he, he was not somebody that 

837
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,640
was just going to hand out 
floggings, you know, for tiny 

838
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:19,160
minor offenses. 
Crozier, not so much. 

839
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,400
He he was OK with it. 
Not, not that he was a sadist or

840
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,360
anything, but Crozier is the one
that ordered Hickey to be to be 

841
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:28,640
flogged. 
And of course, we don't even 

842
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,200
know if that really happened, of
course, but if it did it, it 

843
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,520
would have been because Crozier 
was he was OK with issuing 

844
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,880
corporal punishment. 
Which again tells me, again, 

845
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,680
going back to the historical 
context, because, you know, 

846
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,760
think of I'm going to for the 
crew to like their captain 

847
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,880
because this is the one that 
doesn't flog me. 

848
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,000
Like it's like, I mean, yeah, it
makes sense. 

849
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,040
But it's like, OK, well, I feel 
like it's a pretty low bar. 

850
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,960
These days are well, floggings 
were on the decline at that 

851
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,440
time, certainly a century before
they were much more common, but 

852
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,280
they still happened. 
And, you know, that really could

853
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,200
be a thing that they loved 
Franklin because they knew they 

854
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,560
weren't going to get flogged. 
I could, that's very possible. 

855
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,360
But but in general, he was, he 
was well respected. 

856
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,200
You know, and especially by that
there's a really good 

857
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:34,840
description of a ship getting 
crushed by ice when you when you

858
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,640
look into Ernest Shackleton's 
endurance expedition to 

859
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:44,240
Antarctica, you know, they 
describe the the ominous, eerie 

860
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:48,680
sound of the ice crushing, 
crushing in on the boat every 

861
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,800
night, hour after hour, minute 
after minute. 

862
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,720
It's creaking, it's cracking, 
it's groaning, even the ice 

863
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,840
outside of the ship grinding 
past each other. 

864
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,920
It it's really loud when they 
the ice floe smash into each 

865
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,440
other, it's like an earthquake. 
So this is what they were 

866
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,560
enduring day after day that, you
know, trying to trying to get 

867
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,040
some rest, but knowing that any 
moment this ice could crush the 

868
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,280
ship. 
It's very eerie and very 

869
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,600
stressful. 
So, you know, the amount of 

870
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,400
mental, you know, stress they 
were going through is I can't 

871
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,440
even imagine. 
Certainly by that second winter 

872
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:33,560
of 1847 to 1848, they must have 
been getting low on food. 

873
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:37,560
And the quality of that food may
have been in question, as we'll 

874
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,240
discuss. 
I'm sure this is one of the most

875
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:45,760
remote places on earth. 
Zero chance of being rescued. 

876
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,400
Nobody was coming. 
And even if they did come, they 

877
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,240
probably couldn't get there 
because it was all iced. 

878
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,360
All, excuse me, because it was 
all iced in. 

879
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,520
So the officers are probably 
just trying to do their best to 

880
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:05,000
keep everybody happy, as happy 
as they possibly could. 

881
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,480
Considering the circumstances, 
yeah, right. 

882
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:10,920
When you're you're talking about
the food. 

883
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:15,360
And in episode 5, we start to 
get the idea of the provisions 

884
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,240
that they have maybe being a 
problem. 

885
00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:21,880
There's one of the cook notices 
that some of the food's starting

886
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,600
to go bad thanks to the way the 
canned food is is soldered 

887
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,200
together. 
I guess it's it's not holding up

888
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,720
to the cold. 
And in the show we see one of 

889
00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:32,440
the doctors at good Sir, he 
tests this theory. 

890
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,160
He he feeds Sir John's pet 
monkey some food. 

891
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,360
And the answer doesn't come in 
episode 5. 

892
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,040
It comes actually, I think in 
the next episode. 

893
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,800
But sure enough, the the monkey 
starts to get violent and ends 

894
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,120
up dying. 
And this convinces good Sir 

895
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,560
that's the food stores that they
have are going bad, which 

896
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:49,880
obviously is not a good thing. 
You're stuck in the ice 

897
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,120
thousands of miles from 
civilization. 

898
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,320
You just mentioned, you know, 
nobody's coming to rescue you. 

899
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,400
Was the TV show correct to 
suggest that, on top of 

900
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,720
everything else that we talked 
about, now the expedition's food

901
00:57:00,720 --> 00:57:04,160
stores are going bad? 
You know, this is one of the 

902
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,080
most enduring topics of 
discussion about the Franklin 

903
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:12,560
expedition and, and the answer 
is yes, it's entirely plausible 

904
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,520
and likely that there was 
problems with the tinned food. 

905
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:21,200
And there's we actually do have 
some evidence to go on here. 

906
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:28,560
We know that prior that for this
expedition they chose a a new 

907
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,040
provisioner that had was 
relatively new to the Admiralty 

908
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,480
Goldner's. 
It was called Thomas Goldner, I 

909
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,000
think the guy's name was. 
And he undercut everybody else 

910
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,800
like their usual suppliers. 
And he also filled their order 

911
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,720
in kind of a rush. 
That much we we absolutely know.

912
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,840
And 1984. 
So Fast forward 140 years. 

913
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:56,360
A professor Owen Beatty of the 
University of Alberta LED A-Team

914
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,520
to Beachey Island, where, if you
remember, they overwintered for 

915
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:06,000
a for 1845 to 1846. 
Three men died there during that

916
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,000
winter, John Torrington, John 
Hartnell and William Brain. 

917
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:14,000
And he studied, he actually got 
permission to exhume their 

918
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:19,920
bodies, and he did so. 
And he found that those three 

919
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:25,080
men died of pneumonia and they 
also had tuberculosis. 

920
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,960
So it's pneumonia caused by 
tuberculosis, essentially. 

921
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,480
Their lung tissue is almost 
entirely obliterated by the 

922
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:38,280
tuberculosis. 
So that was a major contribution

923
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,000
to understanding or or at least 
it added some questions because 

924
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,920
why did these three young men, 
they were all young, die so 

925
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,400
early? 
And so, you know, within not 

926
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:54,920
even a year of the expedition, 
did they have tuberculosis when 

927
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:56,880
they left? 
Did they get it on the ship? 

928
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,560
We don't know, but they 
definitely had tuberculosis and 

929
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:04,360
that's going to be important. 
He also found on Beachey Island 

930
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,360
some because they had a winter 
camp there. 

931
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:11,240
There were some remnants of 
structures like a work, a work 

932
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,440
shed and a storehouse and these 
kind of things. 

933
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:18,880
And he also found a pile of 
rubbish, debris, like where they

934
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,000
would just throw their empty tin
cans from their food. 

935
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,240
And there's a great video, 
there's a great documentary 

936
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,760
about this. 
He's actually holding the can 

937
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,720
and he says, look at this and 
he's pointing to the the solder.

938
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,840
There's a big glob of lead right
there on the you can see it. 

939
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,200
He said, you know, this is 
certainly a problem, that this 

940
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,880
definitely would have interacted
with the food and contributed in

941
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:49,920
some degree to lead poisoning. 
So overall, yes, there were 

942
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:51,520
definitely problems with the 
food. 

943
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:56,600
It's very likely that some of 
those soldiers were not very 

944
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,400
secure, which could lead to 
Botulism. 

945
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,880
We don't have proof of anybody 
having Botulism, but is it 

946
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:08,000
likely probably, is it 
plausible? 

947
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:13,200
Certainly plausible. 
So lead poisoning was also found

948
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:18,520
in those three men on Beach 
Island. 10 to 20 times what is 

949
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,640
what would be normal. 
The problem is, is the the 

950
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,960
average person that lived in 
England at the time would have 

951
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,320
had a roughly the same level of 
lead that it was. 

952
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,400
They just had a lot of lead 
exposure at that time. 

953
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:37,120
LED drinking mugs, LED plates, 
LED vessels to hold water, these

954
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,880
kind of things. 
And the ship actually had lead 

955
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:46,160
lined water tanks and and they 
had a desalina tion plant on the

956
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:52,240
board too with lead pipes. 
So all of these things 

957
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:56,760
contribute to lead poisoning 
being a factor. 

958
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:02,840
But the food was certainly a 
problem in the TV series. 

959
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,520
They definitely show that the 
food had been spoiled. 

960
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:12,080
I think there was a the scene 
where one man opened a can and 

961
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,000
that monkey, by the way, was 
real. 

962
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,080
There really was a monkey named 
Jocko on on board. 

963
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:19,400
So that was kind of kind of 
interesting to see. 

964
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,080
They didn't make that up. 
I don't know if they I don't 

965
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:28,040
know if they poisoned the 
monkey, but so they, you know, 

966
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,440
was the did the food contribute 
to their deaths? 

967
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:37,640
Likely, we don't know, but my 
personal opinion is it's likely.

968
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:44,840
That being said, lead poisoning 
doesn't usually kill somebody. 

969
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:50,320
It takes a tremendous amount of 
lead exposure to actually kill a

970
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:52,840
human being. 
And really it's not. 

971
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,040
It's not believed now that lead 
poisoning led to their deaths. 

972
01:01:56,040 --> 01:02:00,120
Not directly, but lead poisoning
can really cause a lot of 

973
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,400
problems. 
You know, you know, it can be 

974
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,960
lethal, but at really high 
doses, But in general, it just 

975
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:13,360
causes confusion, nausea, 
vomiting, mental cognition 

976
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:17,760
problems, though all of those 
things can definitely contribute

977
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:20,720
to all of the other things that 
they were going through. 

978
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:26,360
And, and if if that came from 
the food, it it probably did at 

979
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:30,400
least to some degree it it 
contributed to the lead that 

980
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,600
they were maybe exposed to from 
the water tanks. 

981
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,800
The answer to your question is 
yes, it's extremely likely that 

982
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,240
the provision tinned foods were 
a problem. 

983
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,960
I feel like it, it's like 
they're sent out there and it's 

984
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,440
just like everything around you 
is going to try to kill you. 

985
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,560
Good luck. 
It's like from the environment 

986
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:55,280
to, you know, the, the, the ice 
freezing into even the food and 

987
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,000
the like. 
There's nothing here that's on 

988
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,320
your side. 
You're just yeah, man, that's 

989
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:02,640
and and. 
Think about this too. 

990
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:04,920
Like you said, everything's 
trying to kill you. 

991
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:10,680
So they they have some lead 
exposure, certainly maybe 

992
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:15,720
Botulism, scurvy would have 
started to become an issue as 

993
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,000
their food. 
They have very little fresh 

994
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:20,520
food. 
If you have fresh food, fresh 

995
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,200
meat, fresh vegetables, you're 
not going to get scurvy. 

996
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,960
But they didn't have any of that
that had long since run out. 

997
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:31,440
And their lemon juice supplies, 
you know, especially if it if 

998
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,840
lemon juice freezes and then 
thaws and freezes and thaws now 

999
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:39,600
33 winters, it's going to lose a
lot of its anti scurvy butic 

1000
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,520
properties. 
So Scarvy was probably an issue.

1001
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,640
And again, I'm going to go back 
to those three men that died on 

1002
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:51,040
Beachy Island, tuberculosis. 
Those men were on the ship. 

1003
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,120
Tuberculosis is highly 
infectious. 

1004
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,800
And they didn't know at the time
that TB was spread through 

1005
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,320
droplets, respiratory droplets. 
They didn't know it was 

1006
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,680
airborne. 
Germ theory was still not a 

1007
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:06,840
thing. 
They didn't know about bacteria 

1008
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:11,920
or other pathogens, 
microorganisms, so all of the 

1009
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,200
men on both ships were exposed 
to tuberculosis. 

1010
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,920
Combination of a lot of things. 
Trying to kill Even your 

1011
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:20,920
colleagues are trying to kill 
you. 

1012
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:21,840
They don't know it, but they 
are. 

1013
01:04:23,480 --> 01:06:32,000
Like absolutely. 
Speaking of things that are 

1014
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:35,160
trying to kill them in the 
series and go back to the tune 

1015
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,240
block, there was something on 
rather unsettling because in 

1016
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:41,520
that episode we find out that 
it's not just a regular polar 

1017
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:43,920
bear. 
It's chasing blankie up up the 

1018
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,080
mast and it looks like it has 
like this human like face. 

1019
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,920
And when I I saw this part, I 
couldn't help but think of, you 

1020
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,400
know, stories of creatures from 
sailors like krakens and 

1021
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:57,040
mermaids and all sorts of real 
world creatures. 

1022
01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:00,120
Now we know, you know, mermaids 
have been misidentified and 

1023
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,920
perhaps the result of 
hallucinations, maybe due to 

1024
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:05,120
lead poisoning, things like 
that. 

1025
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,920
But in your mind, where does the
Tumbach fits with some of these 

1026
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,760
other mythical sea creatures 
reported by sailors throughout 

1027
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,400
history? 
You know, that's, that's a 

1028
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:18,960
really interesting question. 
Mariners are terribly 

1029
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,040
superstitious. 
Everything's trying to kill him,

1030
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:24,680
of course. 
Yeah, well, I, and I think 

1031
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:28,200
that's why is because it's such 
a dangerous job, especially back

1032
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:33,160
then, you know, and even now, 
you know, the red sky at night, 

1033
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:35,040
sailor's delight, red sky in 
morning. 

1034
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:39,080
Sailors take warning. 
Setting sail on a Friday is a 

1035
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:41,240
bad idea. 
Killing an albatross is bad 

1036
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,440
luck. 
Even having bananas on board, 

1037
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,800
bad luck. 
Having a woman on board is bad. 

1038
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:51,480
There's all these things that 
are bad luck and it, you know, 

1039
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:56,360
so I think tune Bach represents 
fear of the unknown. 

1040
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:01,880
To to put it, to put it simply, 
it symbolizes all of the things 

1041
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:07,280
that are out there working 
against you when you're in such 

1042
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:11,680
an environment, and especially 
in a, in a Arctic expedition 

1043
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:15,120
like this. 
And, you know, you mentioned 

1044
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,800
mermaids and Kraken and things 
like that. 

1045
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:23,399
I was thinking about how in 
Greek mythology they, they add, 

1046
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:28,279
you know, the Scylla and 
Caribtus and the Sirens and all 

1047
01:08:28,279 --> 01:08:33,080
of these things that were 
dangers of traveling the world's

1048
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:38,279
oceans or, or going on 
adventures, going into places 

1049
01:08:38,279 --> 01:08:41,040
where it was unknown. 
You didn't know what was there. 

1050
01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:43,800
So if you don't know what's 
there, there must be monsters. 

1051
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:46,880
So I think that kind of fits in 
here with Tunbach. 

1052
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:56,319
Now, as far as I know, Tunbach 
is not a a real Inuit legend. 

1053
01:08:58,000 --> 01:08:59,880
I had to do a little bit of 
research on this. 

1054
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:05,160
Not not exactly my area of of 
expertise, but I found that 

1055
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:10,640
there is a similar legend called
Tararnak. 

1056
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:12,960
It probably brutalizing the 
pronunciation here. 

1057
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:16,640
So forgive me or to to get to 
Gaik pack. 

1058
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:22,760
I'm sorry from Alaska. 
And those words generally 

1059
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:28,760
translate to weasel bear. 
So weasel bear that kind of it 

1060
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,560
kind of fits in with how the 
Tunbach looks really creepy 

1061
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:37,680
looking creature, narrow bodied,
really large, moves fast, called

1062
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:42,399
like a demon, supposedly. 
But also there's, there's one 

1063
01:09:42,399 --> 01:09:45,080
from Greenland called the Torn 
Garsuk. 

1064
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:49,560
And this kind of fits in more 
with the Tunbach of how it was 

1065
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:57,880
used in the series, that it was 
summoned by a shaman to punish 

1066
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:00,120
your enemies. 
And that that's kind of what the

1067
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:02,480
Tunbach was, at least as far as 
I could tell. 

1068
01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:07,400
The shaman summoned the Tunbach 
somehow and bound, bound himself

1069
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:12,560
to the Tunbach to maybe prevent 
these white men or Kablunas as 

1070
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:15,320
they call them, from coming into
their territory. 

1071
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:22,040
So I think Dan Simmons really 
did a good job coming up with a 

1072
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:27,000
legend, you know, some oral 
history from the Inuit to 

1073
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:33,040
represent real legend of of 
other Native Americans that have

1074
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:39,200
similar, you know, lore, you 
know, But I think the tune back 

1075
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:45,560
really just represents the 
unknown fear of exploration, not

1076
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:49,480
knowing what's out there, kind 
of a symbol of all the things 

1077
01:10:49,480 --> 01:10:52,720
out there trying to kill you. 
That's kind of how that's kind 

1078
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,400
of my take on it, I think. 
Yeah, no, I mean, that's great. 

1079
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:58,960
I think that's a great take. 
I I would agree that it's, you 

1080
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:02,760
know, if everything is trying to
kill you and there's the 

1081
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:04,640
unknown, you don't know what's 
out there. 

1082
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:10,840
The human mind is going to come 
up with the worst fear, the 

1083
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:13,640
worst of the worst. 
And if you're out there for 

1084
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,800
months and months and months on 
your own getting lead poisoning 

1085
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:21,680
and all these other things too, 
like, I can only imagine what 

1086
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:26,120
sort of horrors and what sort of
terrible creatures and things 

1087
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:27,720
your mind might imagine are out 
there. 

1088
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:31,640
Or like we were talking about 
before with the, the ice and the

1089
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:34,640
noise of the ice and all these, 
you know, creaking noises and 

1090
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:39,800
all these other things that you 
hear, you know, you might just 

1091
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,920
start to hear other things too. 
And, and what's out there, you 

1092
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:43,960
don't know. 
I mean, it's not like there's 

1093
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:46,760
lights out there that you can 
look and see, you know, what's 

1094
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:48,280
out there, it's going to be 
pitch black. 

1095
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:53,120
Yeah, like if you, if you know, 
especially when we were kids, if

1096
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:55,720
you stare in the corner of your 
bedroom long enough, that shadow

1097
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,080
becomes a monster. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1098
01:11:58,080 --> 01:11:58,880
Or under the bed. 
Yeah. 

1099
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:00,120
Monsters on the. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1100
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:02,680
Yeah, yeah. 
And and you know, something else

1101
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:06,960
that I was thinking about is 
that in the show, Tunbach was 

1102
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,720
kind of this mysterious creature
and nebulous. 

1103
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:12,880
I never knew where it was or 
where it was coming from. 

1104
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:16,920
And as I was, as you were 
talking, I was thinking about 

1105
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,040
all of the things that actually 
we're trying to kill them are 

1106
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:23,920
also kind of just out there and 
unknown. 

1107
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:27,960
So like the Tunbach was a killer
that you can't really run from. 

1108
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:32,320
But same, you know, scurvy and 
tuberculosis and lead poisoning 

1109
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:33,880
are things you can't run from as
well. 

1110
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:36,360
So there's kind of a connection 
there too, I think. 

1111
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:39,000
That they also didn't really 
understand, like you're talking 

1112
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:41,480
about everything being lead 
lined because they didn't know 

1113
01:12:41,480 --> 01:12:45,280
that that's where that came from
or the tuberculosis, not knowing

1114
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:49,040
how that spread. 
It's just this curse or the 

1115
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:51,200
supernatural or something that's
happening. 

1116
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:52,640
I would. 
I don't know why it's happening,

1117
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,640
but it's happening. 
Yeah, No, it makes sense. 

1118
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:55,680
Yeah, yeah. 
Good point. 

1119
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,880
Well, if we move on to episode 
#6 in that episode, we finally 

1120
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:02,800
see the decision to abandon ship
coming from the new Erebus, 

1121
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:06,800
Captain James Fitz James. 
But first, Fitz James decides to

1122
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:10,640
hold a carnival to celebrate the
first sunrise of 1848 as a way 

1123
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:14,200
of boosting morale for the men. 
He does this because of a 

1124
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,320
conversation with one of the 
men, Blankie, who recounts his 

1125
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:18,840
time working under Captain John 
Ross. 

1126
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,560
You talked about him before, but
he talks about how they nearly 

1127
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:23,760
died because of the decisions 
that Ross made. 

1128
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:25,360
And Ross didn't seem to care 
about his men. 

1129
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:29,400
So as Blankie put it, he had 
thoughts of killing Ross, and so

1130
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:32,560
Fitz James obviously doesn't 
want his men to have ideas of 

1131
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:34,040
killing him, just another thing 
to kill him. 

1132
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:38,360
Everything else seems to be too.
But so Fitz James asks if he's 

1133
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:41,160
seen that same kind of darkness 
in the minds of his men here, 

1134
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:44,080
and Blankie says I don't have to
have seen it to know it's there.

1135
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:47,760
And then, according to the show,
the carnival that they hold does

1136
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:51,880
seem to help the men's morale, 
at least up until Doctor Stanley

1137
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:55,160
douses himself and sets tents 
and on fire kills himself and 

1138
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:57,360
several men and destroying even 
more of their provisions. 

1139
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:00,440
Do we know what the morale was 
like for the man on the 

1140
01:14:00,440 --> 01:14:04,840
expedition? 
Well, not directly, because like

1141
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,080
I said, we don't, we don't have 
any records about that. 

1142
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:12,760
However, I think that the scene 
in the show is really well done 

1143
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,960
and extremely likely that 
something like this actually did

1144
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:20,880
happen, because we know from 
other expeditions that it did 

1145
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:25,920
happen this way. 
For example, the Sir, Sir 

1146
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:29,760
William Edward Perry used to 
carry theatrical costumes like 

1147
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:32,920
the, you know, like they showed 
in the in the show, you'd have 

1148
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:36,560
trunks full of this stuff. 
So the men could perform skits 

1149
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:41,760
and and little impromptu plays 
for each other, not only on 

1150
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:44,400
board the ship, but if they 
were, if they had to overwinter 

1151
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:47,560
somewhere, they could make camp 
on the ice and and perform 

1152
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:50,600
these, you know, theatrical 
stage presentations. 

1153
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:56,320
Basically there's of course the 
time honored tradition of King 

1154
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:00,800
Neptune's court when when you 
cross the equator, anybody 

1155
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,800
that's never crossed the equator
before, they put on this 

1156
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,160
elaborate kind of hazing event 
for those people. 

1157
01:15:07,440 --> 01:15:13,120
So this was normal performing 
skits and musical presentations,

1158
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:18,080
singing songs. 
This was very normal on ships. 

1159
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:25,640
Amundsen did it on his He 
learned from Adrian de Gerlach 

1160
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:31,040
during the Belgica Expedition, 
back when that was Amundsen's 

1161
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:32,720
first expedition. 
Actually, he was second in 

1162
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:34,680
command. 
That was an Antarctic 

1163
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:37,400
expedition. 
But he learned from from that 

1164
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:40,640
expedition, Amundsen did that. 
You have to keep the men 

1165
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:44,280
occupied. 
You have to keep their minds off

1166
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:47,400
of the the misery. 
You have to keep them active 

1167
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:52,840
because boredom is death. 
He saw, he saw men on that ship,

1168
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:56,880
the Belgica, going crazy, 
literally losing their minds, 

1169
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:01,600
getting violent, getting, you 
know, hallucinating. 

1170
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:06,120
And it's all because of, you 
know, not only the physical 

1171
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:11,360
exhaustion, but the boredom, the
lack of mental stimulation. 

1172
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:15,160
So it's very likely that 
something like this happened. 

1173
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:18,440
You know, did they have a huge 
carnival on the ice? 

1174
01:16:18,440 --> 01:16:20,480
And did it burn down? 
Nobody knows. 

1175
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:22,800
But did they do something 
similar? 

1176
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,000
Almost certainly. 
They almost certainly did 

1177
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:29,040
something some kind of musical 
thing, some kind of 

1178
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:33,920
performances? 
Almost certainly this this 

1179
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:38,480
happened, yes. 
I mean, it makes idle hands with

1180
01:16:38,480 --> 01:16:40,680
the devil's playground, I think 
as you know that as the saying 

1181
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,680
goes, that sort of thing. 
But then again, I think it's an 

1182
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:46,720
example of putting yourself in 
the historical context of you 

1183
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:50,040
mentioned, you know, the, the 
libraries that they had to read,

1184
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:53,720
but they were not going to have 
movies or TV shows to watch 

1185
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:57,600
themselves or, you know, that 
sort of entertainment or even 

1186
01:16:57,600 --> 01:16:59,320
music to listen to or things 
like that. 

1187
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:05,240
And so and bitch, just being out
there in isolation for that long

1188
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:09,000
and having to hear Franklin's 
story over and over again. 

1189
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:11,360
You know, Crozier's already 
getting tired of that. 

1190
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:14,200
Even before they before the I 
really got a God. 

1191
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:15,800
Deal in Van Damon's land, you 
know. 

1192
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:22,640
Well, Ernest Shackleton wrote 
quite a bit about what he had to

1193
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:27,000
do to keep his men sane. 
You know, he kept regular, 

1194
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:30,600
regular schedules, mandatory 
exercise. 

1195
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:38,160
They would have educational 
sessions where he would have 

1196
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,520
them read something or they 
would discuss some literature or

1197
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:43,080
and some of the men obviously 
couldn't read or write. 

1198
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:46,080
And this is definitely true 
aboard Erebus and Terror. 

1199
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:51,160
In fact, we know that they had 
books on board to help teach the

1200
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:54,560
met the men how to read and 
write for those who couldn't. 

1201
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:59,400
So that was probably going on to
some some education of of some 

1202
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:03,360
of the lesser educated men. 
I guess you're out there by 

1203
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:05,760
yourself for that long. 
Might as well learn how to read 

1204
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:08,920
and write. 
Make yourself useful. 

1205
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:12,800
Well, if we go back to the 
series in episode 7, they 

1206
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,480
finally abandoned ship and start
the March across land. 

1207
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:18,680
They do leave a few men on 
terror in case there's a thaw, 

1208
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:22,080
but the rest of the men have 
this 800 mile walk ahead of them

1209
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:24,720
to get to the Hudson Bay 
Company's Fort Resolution. 

1210
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:26,400
I believe you mentioned that 
earlier. 

1211
01:18:27,440 --> 01:18:31,120
Only 18 miles into that walk, 
they discover the bodies of this

1212
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:33,720
rescue party that was sent out a
year earlier. 

1213
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:37,520
We saw them leave, I think it 
was back in Episode 3, and they 

1214
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,280
were supposed to find help and 
bring it back, but obviously 

1215
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,200
that didn't happen. 
How old does the series do 

1216
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:49,560
explaining this Long March? 
Pretty well in general, the the 

1217
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:52,880
conditions that they exhibit in 
the show are, are pretty spot 

1218
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:55,680
on. 
They're hauling these incredibly

1219
01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:59,360
heavy boats. 
These are like the lifeboats or 

1220
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:02,680
you know, whale boats basically 
that that were attached to the 

1221
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:05,920
ship. 
They packed these boats full of 

1222
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:10,840
supplies and then they put them 
on these iron sledges and they 

1223
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:12,880
had to haul them. 
They didn't have any dogs, you 

1224
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:14,400
know, no sled dogs. 
They had to haul them 

1225
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:17,800
themselves. 
These these boats were 30 feet 

1226
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:24,560
long or give or take. 
And, and they had, they had 

1227
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,880
provisions on there, but they 
also took a lot of other stuff 

1228
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:33,240
that later when Mcclintock found
evidence of these, you know, 

1229
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:36,240
artifacts of these boats and 
everything, they had ammunition,

1230
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:40,560
knives, axes, things that you 
probably would expect, some 

1231
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:42,040
spare clothes, that kind of 
thing. 

1232
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:46,960
But they also had, you know, a 
bunch of stuff that he described

1233
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:54,680
as quite useless, like rolls of 
sheet lead, empty pemmican, tins

1234
01:19:54,680 --> 01:20:01,360
and scarves, linen scarves, you 
know, like, why are they hauling

1235
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:04,440
this and countless other items? 
They're just, they were, they 

1236
01:20:04,440 --> 01:20:10,440
were loaded with stuff. 
And so why did they take all 

1237
01:20:10,440 --> 01:20:12,680
that stuff? 
We don't know. 

1238
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:15,160
Maybe they thought they could 
trade some of it with the Inuit.

1239
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:22,440
Maybe they were trying to 
preserve some sort of normalcy 

1240
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:26,320
and have some luxury items on 
board the sledges. 

1241
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:30,840
But something that's pretty 
interesting about this is that, 

1242
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:34,760
first of all, they mentioned 
that they left some people on 

1243
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:38,680
board. 
Now, we're not sure that that 

1244
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,080
happened, and in fact, there's 
some evidence that it didn't. 

1245
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:48,280
But there is Inuit testimony 
that has maintained to this day,

1246
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:53,960
oral history that they went to 
the boats and went on board and 

1247
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:58,960
they saw men on board the ships.
So that's interesting that the 

1248
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:02,440
series included that in there 
that because by the Inuit 

1249
01:21:02,440 --> 01:21:05,160
testimony there were men that 
stayed on the ships. 

1250
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:08,360
So that would have been after 
the the parties left that Inuits

1251
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:10,760
had that the timeline of that 
would have been after 

1252
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:13,400
interesting. 
Yeah, and it could have been 

1253
01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:16,000
much later after, but you know, 
we just don't know. 

1254
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:19,480
But according to the Inuit, 
there were men on the ships. 

1255
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:25,120
But that leads us to back to 
this victory point note, because

1256
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:28,760
Crozier orders that they're 
abandoning ship. 

1257
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:33,440
So they all set out on the ice. 
They all walk to King William 

1258
01:21:33,440 --> 01:21:37,640
Island across the ice and when 
Crozier and Fitz James reach the

1259
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:43,120
Cairn that Graham Gore left the 
original note in, remember the 

1260
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:45,920
note where we overwintered in 
Beachy Island, etcetera. 

1261
01:21:46,480 --> 01:21:52,320
While they find this note and 
they add to it, they they take 

1262
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:55,640
it out and there's no room left 
on the pre printed form area. 

1263
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:59,680
So they write it all along in 
the margins, kind of like you 

1264
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:01,400
would do in school if you ran 
out of space. 

1265
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:02,640
That's basically what it looks 
like. 

1266
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:05,520
You can still see this document 
today if you Google it. 

1267
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:13,360
And this this message says in 
part the HMHM ships Terror and 

1268
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:17,880
Erebus were deserted on 22nd of 
April, leagues north northwest 

1269
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:22,920
of this, having been beset since
12th September 1846, again 

1270
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:28,760
almost two years on the ice. 
Captain FRM Crozier landed here,

1271
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:32,320
three officers and crew 
consisting of 105 souls. 

1272
01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:37,440
Sir John Franklin died on the 
11th of June 1847 and the total 

1273
01:22:37,440 --> 01:22:40,360
loss by deaths in the expedition
has been to this date. 

1274
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:45,440
Nine officers and 15 men signed 
FRM Crozier Captain and senior 

1275
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:49,240
officer and start on tomorrow 
26th for Baxfish River. 

1276
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:53,280
Also signed James Fitz James 
captain HMS Airbus. 

1277
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:57,680
So this is that second portion 
of the victory point note that 

1278
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:00,800
is so important. 
This tells us a lot. 

1279
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,160
This tells us that Crozier and 
Fitz James were still alive by 

1280
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:10,280
this point, that only nine 
officers and 15 men had died at 

1281
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:13,120
this point. 
Interesting though, there were 

1282
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:15,760
24 officers and nine of them had
died already. 

1283
01:23:16,480 --> 01:23:21,760
So why is that? 
It's totally up to speculation, 

1284
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:26,520
but almost, you know, roughly, 
you know, not close to let's say

1285
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:29,480
40% or so of the officers are 
already dead. 

1286
01:23:30,200 --> 01:23:33,480
Don't know why. 
Yeah, that's interesting because

1287
01:23:33,480 --> 01:23:35,520
I would imagine that they at 
least in the in the series when 

1288
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:40,640
we see the officers, they they 
have much better accommodations,

1289
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:41,880
they have much better 
provisions. 

1290
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,280
They have, you know, that 
they're having the meal around 

1291
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:48,720
the table, you know, So I would 
assume that they would have 

1292
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:54,800
better chance of survival. 
And, and you would expect that I

1293
01:23:54,800 --> 01:24:02,040
heard 11 historian postulating 
that perhaps they used more, you

1294
01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:05,800
know, maybe they had lead lined 
drinking mugs or something to 

1295
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:08,440
that effect. 
You know, who knows? 

1296
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:11,600
It is. 
It's just an interesting as far 

1297
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:16,960
as the ratio goes, only 15 of 
the men, but 40% or so of the 

1298
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:20,120
officers were already dead. 
So that's interesting. 

1299
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:23,280
It really is. 
But this, this portion of the 

1300
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:28,040
Victory point note is really 
important and it's the last 

1301
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:33,520
first hand evidence we have of 
what what happened to them. 

1302
01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:36,280
They abandoned the ship and here
they are. 

1303
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:41,000
They added to the Victory point 
note, hoping someday some rescue

1304
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:43,360
ship comes and finds it, but 
they're on their way. 

1305
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:47,280
They're hauling these really 
heavy sledges through this 

1306
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:50,800
barren wasteland. 
That's another really good thing

1307
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,320
about the series when they when 
they show them on on King 

1308
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:58,080
William Island, it's flat. 
There's nothing there. 

1309
01:24:58,080 --> 01:25:01,280
It's desolate, almost 0 
wildlife. 

1310
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:06,080
The this land had all been 
ground down by glaciers, you 

1311
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:09,080
know, millions of years ago. 
So there's nothing there. 

1312
01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:13,120
It's, it's, it's they're in dire
straits. 

1313
01:25:14,440 --> 01:25:15,680
That's why they're heading 
South. 

1314
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:19,120
You, you were talking about the,
the, the note earlier. 

1315
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:21,280
I think it was, correct me if 
I'm wrong, but I think it was on

1316
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:22,920
Beachey Island. 
You mentioned, you know, when 

1317
01:25:22,920 --> 01:25:25,120
they stayed there for the 
winter, you mentioned that they 

1318
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:28,480
got the year wrong. 
Do we know or is there 

1319
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:33,360
speculation perhaps that all of 
these dates maybe are incorrect?

1320
01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:35,560
Like maybe they just were, they 
were counting the dates wrong or

1321
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:37,240
something like that? 
If they if they got it wrong on 

1322
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:41,400
Beachey Island now, would they 
be incorrect in their 

1323
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:42,720
calculations for time? 
Maybe. 

1324
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:44,320
Or I mean maybe there's no way 
for us to know. 

1325
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:48,880
I don't know. 
No, I don't think so because in 

1326
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:53,640
this second portion of the note 
they, I believe it was Fitz 

1327
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:58,360
James that wrote it, he said 
specifically they had been beset

1328
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:03,840
since 12th September 1846, so 
that would have been the fall of

1329
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:07,320
1846. 
So they couldn't possibly have 

1330
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:10,480
still been in Beach Island in 18
by that time? 

1331
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:12,200
OK. 
So it's just a one time thing 

1332
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:14,200
that they just happened to, OK. 
OK, yeah. 

1333
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:15,520
Graham. 
Graham Gorgeous. 

1334
01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:18,560
It was just a mistake on his 
part. 

1335
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:20,280
OK, OK, well, I was thinking 
too. 

1336
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:22,800
It's it's easy. 
I'm imagining, you know, again, 

1337
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:25,640
kind of going back to a prison 
thing, like chalking off the 

1338
01:26:25,640 --> 01:26:27,720
days, right? 
And oh, you miss one count and 

1339
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:30,720
it's all going to run together. 
It'd be easy to do, I would 

1340
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:33,720
imagine. 
But what was really cool about 

1341
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:37,440
the the series is they show 
Fitz, James and Crozier finding,

1342
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:40,160
you know, they they take it out 
of the Cairn, they take they 

1343
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:42,400
roll it out. 
It looks in the show exactly 

1344
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:45,480
like it really looks. 
And they show them writing with 

1345
01:26:45,480 --> 01:26:48,920
the fountain pen. 
You know, Franklin died On this 

1346
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:50,680
date. 
So that was really cool to see 

1347
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:54,840
because they they re enacted 
that perfectly according to what

1348
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:56,400
that document actually looks 
like. 

1349
01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:02,840
In in episode 7 we see one of 
the men Hickey he murders two 

1350
01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:05,800
other men Irving and Farr and he
murders them in cold blood. 

1351
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:08,760
They come across a friendly 
group of Netslick and and then 

1352
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:12,400
we find out in a flashback that 
he killed the real Hickey to 

1353
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:14,800
take his name and and place on 
the ship. 

1354
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:18,280
Do we know if there are any 
infiltrators on the expedition 

1355
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:23,880
like Hickey is in the show? 
We don't know, but it it would 

1356
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:26,520
be highly unlikely. 
I would say definitely not. 

1357
01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:32,440
We have letters from before they
left Greenland from, from many 

1358
01:27:32,440 --> 01:27:34,640
of the men and, and, and all of 
the officers. 

1359
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:36,720
There's no mention of anything 
like this. 

1360
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:40,480
So had anybody stowed away, they
probably would have known by 

1361
01:27:40,480 --> 01:27:44,720
then, because that was, it took 
them a month to get from, from 

1362
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:48,760
Orkney to the West side of 
Greenland at Disco Bay. 

1363
01:27:49,280 --> 01:27:51,800
So in that month they probably 
would have known if there was 

1364
01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:56,080
somebody that had stowed away. 
And we also know that Hickey, 

1365
01:27:56,080 --> 01:27:58,640
Cornelius Hickey was his name. 
He was a cocker's mate. 

1366
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:02,640
He was an actual crewman and he 
did exist. 

1367
01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:06,320
He was not an imposter. 
That was actually Cornelius 

1368
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:10,840
Hickey on board. 
So the show took some liberties 

1369
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:13,440
there with that interest. 
We really good, of course, 

1370
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:19,360
excellent drama, but unlikely 
that there was actually any 

1371
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:20,640
stowaways. 
It would have been really 

1372
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:25,960
dangerous because back in those 
days stowaways would have quite 

1373
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:30,200
likely been executed. 
Because everything else didn't 

1374
01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:34,280
kill him any. 
Yeah, we're going to die anyway,

1375
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:38,400
so. 
But you know my opinion, take it

1376
01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:40,080
for what it's worth. 
I don't think so. 

1377
01:28:40,160 --> 01:28:43,360
I I think it's highly unlikely 
there are any stowaways. 

1378
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:46,120
Well, that might answer my next 
question then, because if we 

1379
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:49,760
move on to episode #8 called 
Terror Camp Clear. 

1380
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:54,120
Because back at the camp, Mr. 
Hickey then claims that it was 

1381
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:58,360
the Netsilik who killed the two 
men as he's starting to gather 

1382
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:00,200
supporters for a mutiny against 
Crozier. 

1383
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:03,480
And the other hand, Crozier 
suspects Hickey of killing 

1384
01:29:03,480 --> 01:29:06,000
Irving and Farr. 
And that is confirmed when 

1385
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:09,880
Doctor Good Sir cuts open 
Irving's stomach to reveal seal 

1386
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:12,640
meat that he was fed by the 
Netsilik just before Hickey 

1387
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:15,040
killed him. 
Do we know if there is a mutiny 

1388
01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:16,600
happening like we see in the 
series? 

1389
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:20,720
Once again, no, we don't know 
for sure. 

1390
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:23,000
There'd be a blanket across all 
of them. 

1391
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:26,560
Well, yeah, really. 
I mean, but I'm sorry about 

1392
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:28,120
that, but no. 
No, no, I mean, that makes 

1393
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:29,600
perfect sense. 
But that's one of those things 

1394
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:31,120
too. 
Like we don't know. 

1395
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:33,040
We don't know, but they kind of 
make it up for the series. 

1396
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:40,640
But what we do know comes from 
other what was normal at the 

1397
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:43,080
time and and what happened on 
other expeditions. 

1398
01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:50,600
Again, unlikely because we know 
that those officers were, were 

1399
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:57,360
well respected among the men. 
So it's, it's doubtful that 

1400
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:01,400
there would have been a mutiny. 
But you know, on the devil's 

1401
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:06,680
advocate side, the amount of 
stress and fear and desperation 

1402
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:09,800
they were going through was 
considerable at that point in 

1403
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:14,920
time. 
So is it possible that maybe a, 

1404
01:30:15,080 --> 01:30:19,760
a, a faction of men broke off 
and said, we're going to go this

1405
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:22,080
way and do this instead and 
we're not listening to you 

1406
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:29,600
anymore? 
Maybe I, I would, you know, in 

1407
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:34,480
fairness it it may be as likely 
as not, but my personal opinion 

1408
01:30:34,480 --> 01:30:38,200
is is no, because I just feel 
like they would have stuck 

1409
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:41,680
together or tried to to to 
support each other as best as 

1410
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:45,080
they could. 
I think we know it eventually 

1411
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:49,080
they did separate into different
groups based on where the 

1412
01:30:49,080 --> 01:30:57,480
artifacts are, where their camps
were, but hard to say that. 

1413
01:30:57,640 --> 01:30:58,960
I mean, that's a really good 
question. 

1414
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:04,760
It's certainly plausible. 
I guess just my own personal 

1415
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:07,000
opinion is that it probably 
didn't happen. 

1416
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:09,920
Yeah, it makes sense. 
I mean, for an expedition like 

1417
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:15,960
this too, you even before you 
leave, I would assume you kind 

1418
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:17,440
of have an idea what you're 
getting into. 

1419
01:31:17,440 --> 01:31:21,040
Like you're going to the middle 
of nowhere at for years and 

1420
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,800
there's probably going to be a 
chance that you're not going to 

1421
01:31:24,800 --> 01:31:26,720
come back. 
But the flip side of that too is

1422
01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:30,160
I could also understand it being
plausible, as you're saying, 

1423
01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:34,440
because you might from the 
safety of England, you might be 

1424
01:31:34,440 --> 01:31:36,120
like, yeah, I kind of know what 
I'm getting into. 

1425
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:40,400
And then when you get out there,
it's like, OK, this is, this is 

1426
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:46,240
very, very, this sucks, you 
know, and it just continues on. 

1427
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:48,000
Everything's trying to kill you 
and every all this stuff. 

1428
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:51,400
So I could see how it, you know,
what you think at the beginning 

1429
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:53,960
of a mission versus, you know, 
when you get into the 

1430
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:56,920
expedition. 
Yeah, I could. 

1431
01:31:56,920 --> 01:31:58,320
I could see it as being 
plausible, too. 

1432
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:01,240
Yeah. 
And when they're hauling those 

1433
01:32:01,360 --> 01:32:06,640
sledges, which weighed thousands
of pounds each across this 

1434
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:10,880
desolate wasteland of King 
William Island, a good number of

1435
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:14,520
them probably were thinking, I 
didn't sign up for this, you 

1436
01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:20,720
know, So maybe, I guess, is the 
best answer I can give you. 

1437
01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:26,160
Well, here's another kind of out
there question about the way 

1438
01:32:26,160 --> 01:32:29,120
this series shows something too.
Because at the end of episode 8,

1439
01:32:29,120 --> 01:32:31,440
as as Crozier has Hickey 
arrested for his deeds, the 

1440
01:32:31,440 --> 01:32:34,400
Tumbach attacks the camp as a 
form of retribution for killing 

1441
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:37,400
the Netsalick family. 
Hickey and his men escape. 

1442
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:39,800
We find out in the next episode 
that 32 are killed. 

1443
01:32:40,240 --> 01:32:42,360
We actually see one of those 
deaths close up where it almost 

1444
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:44,000
looks like something 
supernatural is going on the 

1445
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:45,960
tube. 
Bach is eating one of the men. 

1446
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:48,080
It kind of looks like, or I 
think it's even talked about, I 

1447
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:50,080
don't remember if it's in this 
episode or the next one, It 

1448
01:32:50,080 --> 01:32:52,400
talks about how you know, the 
Tumbach is eating the souls of 

1449
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:54,920
its victims. 
And earlier we're talking about 

1450
01:32:54,920 --> 01:32:58,080
how the Tumbach hidden with 
other mythological beasts 

1451
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:01,560
reported by sailors. 
But were any of those reports or

1452
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:03,760
was it more were there any of 
them that were kind of 

1453
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:06,600
supernatural in this way in the 
in the series it's eating the 

1454
01:33:06,600 --> 01:33:10,080
soul or were they more just, you
know, like you're talking about 

1455
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:13,400
fear of the unknown or was there
supernatural element to it or? 

1456
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:20,000
I think it was mostly not 
supernatural per SE, but 

1457
01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:24,160
probably just a a fear of the 
unknown like we talked about 

1458
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:29,200
before and possibly some 
extrapolation you missed. 

1459
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:33,440
Almost like a game of telephone 
where, you know, a a giant 

1460
01:33:33,440 --> 01:33:37,120
sturgeon, you tell one guy, then
that guy tells another guy and 

1461
01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:41,240
by 10 guys down the road, it's a
mermaid or they see a giant 

1462
01:33:41,240 --> 01:33:43,880
squid and that that turns into 
some kind of dragon. 

1463
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:48,880
So I think that's probably how 
those things happen over time 

1464
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:52,880
and and especially back, you 
know, when when humans really 

1465
01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:55,320
first started traveling the 
oceans, you know, hundreds of 

1466
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:58,440
years ago. 
I mean, you've seen those maps 

1467
01:33:58,440 --> 01:34:03,600
where there's the sea monsters 
and all kinds of things out in 

1468
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:06,640
the in the water or some maps 
where they still thought the, 

1469
01:34:06,640 --> 01:34:08,520
the earth was flat. 
You were going to fall off. 

1470
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:11,880
You're going to fall. 
Yeah, this, you know, and, and 

1471
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:15,040
again, it just comes back to you
don't know what's out there. 

1472
01:34:15,040 --> 01:34:20,520
So they make things up. 
But I also think, you know, tell

1473
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:23,960
me what you think about this. 
And and I'm no great like 

1474
01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:27,680
literary analyst or anything, 
but I was trying to think of why

1475
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:33,320
Dan Simmons wrote it this way of
having a tune Bach, this 

1476
01:34:33,320 --> 01:34:38,120
creature terrorizing the crew. 
Other than that, it's just a 

1477
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:40,360
great story. 
But I was thinking that maybe 

1478
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:45,760
the tune Bach is somehow Simmons
was trying to communicate that 

1479
01:34:47,040 --> 01:34:54,160
almost like a modern day apology
for white men interfering with 

1480
01:34:54,160 --> 01:34:57,200
the natives of the Canadian 
Arctic or, you know, I don't 

1481
01:34:57,200 --> 01:35:00,560
know, some kind of I, I don't 
know if that's the case. 

1482
01:35:00,560 --> 01:35:04,080
But you know, what do you think?
Is that something that you think

1483
01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:05,760
he might have meant by the 
Tumbach? 

1484
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:08,200
Yeah. 
I mean, I'm speculating because 

1485
01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:10,760
I don't I don't know what his 
intentions were in, in running 

1486
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:14,320
it that way, but I could 
definitely see that where it's 

1487
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:19,280
because it does seem to be the 
Tumbach is all about restoring 

1488
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:27,360
the natural order of things. 
And this crew or these two ships

1489
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:30,160
are upsetting that natural 
order. 

1490
01:35:30,160 --> 01:35:33,480
They're they're not supposed to 
be there basically is is kind of

1491
01:35:33,480 --> 01:35:35,600
that, you know, and everything's
trying to kill him. 

1492
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:37,600
You know, nature's trying to 
kill him. 

1493
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:44,280
But the Tumbach is almost, you 
know, it seems to be a bringing 

1494
01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:48,080
to life what you know, Mother 
nature's is trying to kill like 

1495
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:51,040
a visualization of all these 
things that's it's hard to on 

1496
01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:57,840
screen or on on paper. 
It's hard to make tuberculosis 

1497
01:35:58,200 --> 01:36:01,040
interesting because you know, 
you can't see it transferring, 

1498
01:36:01,040 --> 01:36:04,880
right, But you can see this this
creature attacking and and that 

1499
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,680
sort of element or lead 
poisoning is not fun to watch on

1500
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:11,520
TV. 
But you know, this sort of 

1501
01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:16,200
action and and I could see that 
almost, you know, impersonation 

1502
01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:20,200
of a lot of these natural 
elements bringing which kind of 

1503
01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:24,160
in my mind goes back to the 
supernatural element of it too, 

1504
01:36:24,160 --> 01:36:29,280
where it's all these natural 
elements. 

1505
01:36:29,280 --> 01:36:32,520
But then bring them all together
into that fear of the unknown 

1506
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:34,760
too, where there are things that
we don't know. 

1507
01:36:35,520 --> 01:36:38,280
Talking about the lead poisoning
in the tuberculosis, as as we 

1508
01:36:38,280 --> 01:36:40,720
mentioned before, they didn't 
know why these things were 

1509
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:42,000
happening. 
There's a lot of stuff they 

1510
01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:43,560
don't know why these are things 
are happening. 

1511
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:45,520
We just know that there's 
terrible things happening. 

1512
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:51,960
And how do you visualize that? 
How do you show that, other than

1513
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:54,760
having it be something where 
it's completely in their mind, 

1514
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,200
where they're all just, you 
know, it was all the dream or 

1515
01:36:57,200 --> 01:36:59,200
they're all flat, you know, 
nightmares and you know, that 

1516
01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:00,560
sort of thing. 
I don't know how you do that 

1517
01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:02,680
without doing something 
supernatural like the Tumbach. 

1518
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:06,320
Yeah, that's an excellent point.
I mean, it's certainly, it 

1519
01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:11,160
certainly adds a lot of interest
to a story where we we first of 

1520
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:15,200
all, we don't know what happened
and 2nd, watching people die of 

1521
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:18,920
disease isn't that interesting 
or exciting. 

1522
01:37:18,920 --> 01:37:22,000
So. 
So yeah, that's a good point. 

1523
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:23,560
Sorry I turned the tables. 
I asked you. 

1524
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:26,360
A question. 
No, it's a great question. 

1525
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:28,840
I mean, and that's something too
that I think it leads to, you 

1526
01:37:28,840 --> 01:37:31,480
know, how do you take a story 
like this? 

1527
01:37:31,480 --> 01:37:34,120
You know, of something where we 
don't know a lot about you 

1528
01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:36,680
talking about, you know, every 
question is well, you don't 

1529
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:40,880
really know, but trying to 
connect some of those dots and 

1530
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:45,760
tell a tell a story. 
You still have to to do that to 

1531
01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:47,600
make it ATV show That's 
interesting to watch. 

1532
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:54,000
Yeah, and it is. 
Yeah, yeah, Zootopia 2 has come 

1533
01:37:54,000 --> 01:38:24,840
home to Disney Plus. 
We are up to episode 9 of the TV

1534
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:28,320
series. 
Speaking of, and as if things 

1535
01:38:28,560 --> 01:38:30,440
aren't bad enough, things are 
going from bad to worse. 

1536
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:35,000
Fitz James scurvy is so bad that
he asked Crozier to euthanize 

1537
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:36,960
him. 
Crozier is kept for by by 

1538
01:38:36,960 --> 01:38:38,920
Hickey's group in a 
confrontation that leaves 

1539
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:41,240
Hartnell dead. 
Blankie's not doing well, so he 

1540
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:44,160
decides to make himself bait for
the Tumbaki, covers himself in 

1541
01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:47,200
Forks in hopes of being eaten 
and killing Tumbak in the 

1542
01:38:47,200 --> 01:38:49,880
process. 
That's what he hopes, at least. 

1543
01:38:50,080 --> 01:38:53,200
Meanwhile, Hickey's starving men
resort to cannibalism. 

1544
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:56,680
But there is a a slight silver 
lining because Blankie happens 

1545
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:58,800
to stumble upon what they've 
been looking for this whole 

1546
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:01,920
time, the Northwest Passage. 
Of course, he dies a few minutes

1547
01:39:01,920 --> 01:39:03,840
later in the episode. 
So it's unlikely that anybody's 

1548
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:05,800
ever going to know that he was 
the first person to see the 

1549
01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:08,120
passage. 
But that kind of makes me wonder

1550
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:13,960
something we kind of alluded to 
with this, but these hardships 

1551
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:16,520
and tribulations that we're 
seeing, and I know we talked 

1552
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:18,720
about every episode. 
We don't really know. 

1553
01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:23,720
But how do we it's the note, the
only way that we know that these

1554
01:39:23,720 --> 01:39:25,680
things happened? 
Or are there other things that 

1555
01:39:25,680 --> 01:39:27,840
we know how some of these things
we're seeing this series 

1556
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:31,320
actually happen? 
Well, the victory point note is 

1557
01:39:31,640 --> 01:39:36,280
one of the main sources we have 
for knowing at least where the 

1558
01:39:36,280 --> 01:39:40,920
men were at any given time or at
least at those specific times. 

1559
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:47,640
But we do have other evidence. 
We have a lot of artifacts that 

1560
01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:51,520
have been discovered along 
mostly along the West side of 

1561
01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:54,800
King William Island and the 
southern shores of King William 

1562
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:57,800
Island as they, as they were 
trying to sledge down the West 

1563
01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:01,040
Coast and then get S they were 
trying to cross the Simpson 

1564
01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:05,840
Strait and get across to the 
mainland Adelaide Peninsula. 

1565
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:09,920
And so we can kind of follow 
that trail. 

1566
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:12,960
There's there's a couple of 
spots, there's the what's called

1567
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:16,640
the boat place that Mcclintock 
found where there were some 

1568
01:40:16,640 --> 01:40:19,920
skeletons and a whole bunch of 
those useless items that we 

1569
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:24,840
talked about earlier. 
And there's two main camps. 

1570
01:40:25,160 --> 01:40:27,840
There's one on the West Coast of
the island. 

1571
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:33,960
At Erebus Bay that seemed to be 
a, a, a stopping point of some 

1572
01:40:34,240 --> 01:40:37,640
kind where they camped and then 
another one on the southern 

1573
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:44,000
shore of Terror Bay and quite a 
bit has been found there. 

1574
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:48,880
But interestingly, you you 
mentioned Lieutenant John Irving

1575
01:40:49,200 --> 01:40:52,840
earlier that the in the show is 
depicted as being murdered by 

1576
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:56,960
Hickey. 
Really interesting that his 

1577
01:40:57,040 --> 01:41:00,680
grave site was found, or at 
least it's, it's reasonably 

1578
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:05,600
certain it's his skeleton. 
It was found alone with no 

1579
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:08,600
others around, you know, quite 
a, quite a distance from from 

1580
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:11,120
where any, any other remains 
were found. 

1581
01:41:12,200 --> 01:41:17,720
And it, it's DNA analysis has 
shown that it's very likely him.

1582
01:41:18,080 --> 01:41:21,400
But everything that was found 
with him were items that belong 

1583
01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:24,280
to him that you know. 
So it's almost certain that 

1584
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:28,800
those remains are Irving's. 
So it it's interesting to me 

1585
01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:33,320
that that matches up of in the 
series where Hickey murders 

1586
01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:37,920
Irving is they were kind of off 
by themselves on like a sand 

1587
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:41,320
dune basically, or gravel dune, 
whatever that was. 

1588
01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:45,200
So they did a good job 
portraying that. 

1589
01:41:45,360 --> 01:41:49,360
You know, I'm sure that Hickey 
didn't really kill Irving, but 

1590
01:41:49,880 --> 01:41:54,800
where his grave was found was 
kind of in a isolated spot like 

1591
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:58,040
that where he died in the show. 
So I thought that was that was 

1592
01:41:58,040 --> 01:42:02,760
pretty well done. 
And they show Blankie 

1593
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:08,080
overlooking what he says. 
Oh, this is the last link of the

1594
01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:14,320
Northwest Passage. 
And he was, he was overlooking a

1595
01:42:14,320 --> 01:42:18,320
body of water which is now 
called the Ray St. between King 

1596
01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:20,400
William Island and Boothia 
Peninsula. 

1597
01:42:23,360 --> 01:42:26,600
Of course, we don't know if he 
actually did that, but that was 

1598
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:30,040
later. 
That waterway was later found by

1599
01:42:30,040 --> 01:42:36,320
John Ray in 1854, who was vastly
underrated. 

1600
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:39,000
Man, I did an episode about him 
as well. 

1601
01:42:40,560 --> 01:42:43,760
So that was interesting that 
they mentioned that they didn't 

1602
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:45,760
call it the race trade because 
it wasn't called that yet. 

1603
01:42:46,520 --> 01:42:49,600
In fact, that waterways is what 
I was referring to earlier, that

1604
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:53,600
they they felt was didn't exist,
that it was a it was all 

1605
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:57,840
connected by land. 
Something else that they 

1606
01:42:57,840 --> 01:43:03,960
portrayed well as far as the 
trials and tribulations they 

1607
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:07,560
were facing. 
Just harkening back to episode 

1608
01:43:07,560 --> 01:43:12,680
1, David Young is that the young
man that the cabin boy that dies

1609
01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:16,680
on the surgeon's table, Doctor 
good Harry, good Sir, was 

1610
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:20,320
tending to him. 
He dies of tuberculosis. 

1611
01:43:21,760 --> 01:43:24,680
David Young was an actual member
of the crew. 

1612
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:29,160
He didn't die on the ship they 
he he actually was found. 

1613
01:43:29,160 --> 01:43:33,920
His remains, interestingly, were
just found along with William 

1614
01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:36,800
Oren. 
He is the man portrayed in the 

1615
01:43:36,800 --> 01:43:40,720
series that falls overboard and 
dies in the frigid water. 

1616
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:42,280
They can't get him out and he 
drowns. 

1617
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:46,520
So those two men were real 
members of the expedition and 

1618
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:51,880
just recently, I mean weeks ago 
or last month of May of 2026, 

1619
01:43:53,400 --> 01:43:58,440
their remains were positively 
identified using DNA analysis by

1620
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:03,840
University of Waterloo 
researcher and his team, Douglas

1621
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:07,360
Stenton. 
They compared DNA against a 

1622
01:44:08,280 --> 01:44:11,960
known family, members of members
of the crew, and they were able 

1623
01:44:11,960 --> 01:44:15,400
to match it. 
Those two men, as well as Harry 

1624
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:21,240
Peglar, who Mcclintock found 
Harry Peglar skeleton, and they 

1625
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:24,120
identified the jawbone of James 
Fitz. 

1626
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:26,680
James. 
Yeah. 

1627
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:28,440
Really, really interesting 
stuff. 

1628
01:44:28,640 --> 01:44:30,920
So all of those people were real
at that. 

1629
01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:33,240
They showed in the show that's 
not how they died. 

1630
01:44:33,240 --> 01:44:38,440
But still great job in depicting
the actual names of the men that

1631
01:44:38,440 --> 01:44:43,160
were that were on the ship. 
Well, were they, were they, do 

1632
01:44:43,160 --> 01:44:45,560
we know? 
Were they, did they die close 

1633
01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:47,040
together? 
Because we, you know, mentioned 

1634
01:44:47,240 --> 01:44:49,600
the one guy being kind of 
further away. 

1635
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:54,440
Where the does that imply that 
these others were found next to 

1636
01:44:54,480 --> 01:44:59,880
each other? 
Harry Beglar was found at the 

1637
01:44:59,880 --> 01:45:03,080
boat place. 
There were two skeletons there. 

1638
01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:09,280
I'm, I'm, I'm not certain where 
exactly they found David Young 

1639
01:45:09,280 --> 01:45:11,920
and William Warren, but it was 
definitely on King William 

1640
01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:14,160
Island and not, you know, in the
water. 

1641
01:45:14,640 --> 01:45:16,600
So. 
Not the way they showed. 

1642
01:45:17,240 --> 01:45:19,960
It right, so it wasn't exactly 
how they showed it, but if you 

1643
01:45:19,960 --> 01:45:23,200
remember, I mentioned they 
didn't they didn't depict any of

1644
01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:24,840
the overwintering on Beachy 
Island. 

1645
01:45:25,440 --> 01:45:29,400
So I think what they were doing 
in the series was using the 

1646
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:32,560
death of David Young of 
tuberculosis kind of as a 

1647
01:45:33,120 --> 01:45:37,840
representative of the deaths of 
the three men on Beachy, John 

1648
01:45:37,840 --> 01:45:42,040
Torrington, John Hartnell and 
William Brain of dying of 

1649
01:45:42,040 --> 01:45:45,560
tuberculosis. 
So just kind of maybe trying to 

1650
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:49,840
fill in the gaps there a little 
bit with that sequence being cut

1651
01:45:49,840 --> 01:45:53,280
out. 
Yeah, no, that that makes a lot 

1652
01:45:53,280 --> 01:45:56,360
of sense. 
Yeah, so they, the artefacts 

1653
01:45:56,360 --> 01:46:00,280
they found though really do help
us know, as you were asking 

1654
01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:04,160
about the evidence. 
That really helps us know where 

1655
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:08,960
they went, you know, did they, 
did they go South and then start

1656
01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:11,720
heading back? 
Maybe, but we don't know. 

1657
01:46:12,240 --> 01:46:16,160
But we do know where they were, 
at least at one time. 

1658
01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:20,280
Was there anything from the 
analysis of those that would 

1659
01:46:20,320 --> 01:46:23,600
lead to determining cause of 
death? 

1660
01:46:26,720 --> 01:46:32,880
Yes and no. 
No, no evidence of tuberculosis 

1661
01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:37,120
or anything like that. 
However, the jawbone of James 

1662
01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:40,640
Fitz James was found with knife 
marks on it. 

1663
01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:45,560
Specifically cut marks. 
Not, you know, not damage that 

1664
01:46:45,560 --> 01:46:49,120
might be from an attack. 
But like cannibalism like we see

1665
01:46:49,120 --> 01:46:52,480
in the series, Yeah. 
So it very. 

1666
01:46:52,480 --> 01:46:59,240
Strongly suggests that 
cannibalism took place with his 

1667
01:46:59,480 --> 01:47:03,040
with, with his body. 
You know, it doesn't 

1668
01:47:03,040 --> 01:47:06,640
definitively prove it, but it 
it, it highly suggests it. 

1669
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:11,040
And there are other remains that
they found of bones of, of men 

1670
01:47:11,040 --> 01:47:13,960
that have not been identified 
that that have similar marks 

1671
01:47:14,480 --> 01:47:19,400
that that indicate some kind of,
you know, butchering process of 

1672
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:24,320
removing the flesh from the 
bones, which is exactly what the

1673
01:47:24,320 --> 01:47:28,200
Inuit reported to John Ray in 
1854. 

1674
01:47:28,200 --> 01:47:33,400
So the evidence is backing up 
that oral history from the Inuit

1675
01:47:33,400 --> 01:47:36,400
people. 
Yeah, 1-2, like you've mentioned

1676
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:40,760
before with I think it was, was 
the the 1824 expedition, I think

1677
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:43,600
you said of Franklin, where 
there was cannibalism there too.

1678
01:47:45,200 --> 01:47:50,400
Well, it was actually his first,
his 1819 to 1822 expedition, the

1679
01:47:50,960 --> 01:47:52,680
what's called the Copper mine 
expedition. 

1680
01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:54,680
That's the one that went 
horribly wrong. 

1681
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:58,920
And there was there was some 
cannibalism during that 

1682
01:47:59,280 --> 01:48:01,480
expedition as well. 
Well, there's something that 

1683
01:48:01,480 --> 01:48:04,600
maybe might be a little more 
documented happens back in 

1684
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:07,720
England in this episode when you
see Lady Jane getting help from 

1685
01:48:07,720 --> 01:48:11,040
Charles Dickens to fund rescue 
for her husband's expedition. 

1686
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:14,080
Was Charles Dickens actually 
involved like that? 

1687
01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:21,000
He was, yeah. 
I may be a little bit biased 

1688
01:48:21,000 --> 01:48:23,680
here, but if there's a villain 
in this story, it's Charles 

1689
01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:28,720
Dickens. 
Yeah, he, and I'll tell you why.

1690
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:37,800
He absolutely refused to believe
any of the reports of, of John 

1691
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:42,040
Ray. 
Just in short, John Ray was a 

1692
01:48:42,440 --> 01:48:46,800
renowned explorer, surveyor of 
the Arctic, Canadian Arctic, 

1693
01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:51,800
really an incredible man. 
But in 1854, it was his third 

1694
01:48:51,800 --> 01:48:55,320
expedition. 
He wasn't even searching for 

1695
01:48:55,320 --> 01:48:58,160
Franklin. 
He was just mapping coastline. 

1696
01:48:58,640 --> 01:49:01,800
He was trying to find. 
He was trying to chart the last 

1697
01:49:02,480 --> 01:49:09,120
unknown coastline in that area. 
It was up there near Boothia for

1698
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:11,640
the Hudson's Bay Company. 
He wasn't part of the Admiralty.

1699
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:15,400
He was on foot. 
He didn't even have a ship, but 

1700
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:19,320
he encountered some Inuit folks 
that and he, he had a 

1701
01:49:19,320 --> 01:49:24,400
translator, a man named Ulikbach
translate for him. 

1702
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:28,360
And these Inuit people produced 
artifacts. 

1703
01:49:29,240 --> 01:49:33,880
They had silverware, spoons, 
forks, knives engraved with the 

1704
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:37,720
initials of officers of the ship
FRM Crozier. 

1705
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:43,080
They had they had Sir John 
Franklin's Royal Order of Merit,

1706
01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:48,720
the big metal, big shiny metal 
with his initials on it, as they

1707
01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:53,600
had a silver plate that said Sir
John Franklin on the back 

1708
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:59,920
inscribed one of them was 
wearing a a cap with a gold cap 

1709
01:49:59,920 --> 01:50:03,560
band wrapped around it. 
And he Ray recognized that that 

1710
01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:06,800
cap band was from a Royal Navy 
cap. 

1711
01:50:07,760 --> 01:50:11,240
So he traded with them to take 
all these artifacts. 

1712
01:50:11,240 --> 01:50:13,480
And there were a lot. 
There was like a just 

1713
01:50:13,480 --> 01:50:17,520
miscellaneous things, 
eyeglasses, silverware, plates, 

1714
01:50:17,720 --> 01:50:19,640
all kinds of just small personal
items. 

1715
01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:25,280
And they told him their own oral
history of, of what they found, 

1716
01:50:25,680 --> 01:50:29,360
that they saw these men, 
Kablunas, the white men dragging

1717
01:50:29,360 --> 01:50:33,640
these boats down the coast and 
that they all look terrible. 

1718
01:50:33,640 --> 01:50:37,560
They were starving and they had 
black sunken eyes and black 

1719
01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:41,000
mouths. 
So that all indicates scurvy, 

1720
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:46,600
you know, very starvation and 
scurvy very clearly. 

1721
01:50:47,520 --> 01:50:50,760
They say they they were headed 
back, they were headed South. 

1722
01:50:51,320 --> 01:50:54,520
They communicated only with 
gestures, he told John Ray. 

1723
01:50:55,560 --> 01:50:59,240
But they determined that the the
white men were trying to get 

1724
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:04,520
down crossover the street, 
crossover the straight and get 

1725
01:51:04,560 --> 01:51:07,800
to the river, which would be Bax
Fish River or just called Bax 

1726
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:12,840
River today. 
And that's, that's what the 

1727
01:51:12,840 --> 01:51:14,680
white men had communicated to 
them. 

1728
01:51:15,480 --> 01:51:19,000
But then the next winter, they 
returned and the men were all 

1729
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:22,920
gone. 
And they, they found that they 

1730
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:25,880
actually did cross the street. 
There was a small group of men 

1731
01:51:25,880 --> 01:51:30,800
that had made it across to the 
mainland, to Adelaide Peninsula,

1732
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:34,080
but they were all dead. 
They found an overturned boat 

1733
01:51:34,560 --> 01:51:38,680
and a bunch of bunch of corpses 
and some, you know, metal 

1734
01:51:38,680 --> 01:51:43,280
artifacts and various things 
scattered around, but they 

1735
01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:46,960
didn't make it. 
But they actually did make it to

1736
01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:49,760
the mainland, but they couldn't 
quite make it to the river. 

1737
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:53,720
So that was their their oral 
testimony. 

1738
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:55,720
Among other things. 
They they said that they saw the

1739
01:51:55,720 --> 01:52:00,440
boats. 
One of the boats was S had had 

1740
01:52:00,760 --> 01:52:03,400
drifted South of the island and 
they're the only amassed were 

1741
01:52:03,400 --> 01:52:06,800
sticking up. 
They said, like I mentioned 

1742
01:52:06,800 --> 01:52:08,920
before, they went on to the 
ships and there were men on 

1743
01:52:08,920 --> 01:52:11,920
board. 
So John Ray takes all these 

1744
01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:16,640
artifacts and goes back to 
England and relays all of the 

1745
01:52:16,640 --> 01:52:22,040
oral testimony from the Inuit 
folks and Lady Jane Franklin and

1746
01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:23,720
Charles Dickens were having none
of it. 

1747
01:52:23,960 --> 01:52:30,320
That I left out the important 
part that the Inuit said that 

1748
01:52:30,320 --> 01:52:34,640
they was absolutely evidence of 
cannibalism, that they saw bones

1749
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:42,000
and in pots in that the men were
the men had just human legs in 

1750
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:45,640
the sledge that they were 
hauling, things like that. 

1751
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:50,520
So there was definitely 
testimony of cannibalism and Ray

1752
01:52:50,520 --> 01:52:55,160
and, and Lady Franklin were not 
having it and just went on this 

1753
01:52:55,160 --> 01:52:58,120
attack. 
Not so much of John Ray. 

1754
01:52:58,120 --> 01:53:02,840
He was careful not to do that, 
but he, he called the Inuits, 

1755
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:06,120
you know, to paraphrase, he 
called them basically savages. 

1756
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:12,080
They're liars, untrustworthy. 
How could we possibly believe 

1757
01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:16,160
anything these savages ever say?
They probably attacked the men 

1758
01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:20,160
themselves and killed them. 
And it went back and forth. 

1759
01:53:20,160 --> 01:53:24,880
He published this in his, his 
publication, a journal, 

1760
01:53:24,960 --> 01:53:28,040
basically a magazine kind of was
called Household Words. 

1761
01:53:29,520 --> 01:53:32,040
And it went back and forth 
between Dickens and Ray. 

1762
01:53:32,040 --> 01:53:36,800
Ray was trying to defend his 
evidence and testimony and the 

1763
01:53:36,800 --> 01:53:42,360
Inuit people and Dickens just 
kept kept up with the attack, so

1764
01:53:42,360 --> 01:53:44,720
much so that Ray really became 
discredited. 

1765
01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:49,080
People just didn't believe it. 
They didn't want to believe that

1766
01:53:49,480 --> 01:53:55,920
these noble members of the Royal
Navy, these gentlemen, these 

1767
01:53:55,920 --> 01:54:00,480
officers and, and other, you 
know, dignified Englishman could

1768
01:54:00,480 --> 01:54:09,240
possibly resort to cannibalism. 
And, and in one of Ray's letters

1769
01:54:09,240 --> 01:54:13,000
he wrote from the mutilated 
state of many of the bodies on 

1770
01:54:13,000 --> 01:54:17,240
the contents of the kettles, it 
is evident that our that our 

1771
01:54:17,240 --> 01:54:20,280
wretched countrymen had been 
driven to the last dread 

1772
01:54:20,280 --> 01:54:22,360
alternative as a means of 
sustaining life. 

1773
01:54:23,320 --> 01:54:25,600
And that just didn't sit well 
with the people of the time. 

1774
01:54:25,600 --> 01:54:29,200
Again, this is a Victorian era. 
They just didn't, they didn't 

1775
01:54:29,200 --> 01:54:33,640
want to believe it. 
And Ray was vastly discredited 

1776
01:54:33,640 --> 01:54:38,240
and just kind of continued on 
with his surveying career. 

1777
01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:43,320
And, and it really hasn't been 
until the last couple of decades

1778
01:54:44,160 --> 01:54:46,440
that his reputation has been 
restored. 

1779
01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:51,200
He's he's really starting to 
earn a lot more respect. 

1780
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:53,720
And it's all because of Charles 
Dickens mostly. 

1781
01:54:54,040 --> 01:54:56,360
So that's why I said he's kind 
of the villain of this episode. 

1782
01:54:57,920 --> 01:54:59,440
Yeah. 
I mean, that's it kind of goes 

1783
01:54:59,440 --> 01:55:01,120
back to what you were talking 
about the very beginning. 

1784
01:55:01,120 --> 01:55:04,680
You know, it's, you know, the 
Victorian area and being all 

1785
01:55:04,680 --> 01:55:11,040
about honor and, you know, gain 
gaining this, the the honor of 

1786
01:55:11,040 --> 01:55:12,600
the expedition and, and all of 
that. 

1787
01:55:12,600 --> 01:55:16,640
And so I could see how back in 
England you're in the comforts 

1788
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:19,720
of of home. 
You're not going to imagine 

1789
01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:24,720
that. 
But lady, his wife, I imagine, 

1790
01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:27,040
would be like, you know, there's
no way he would resort to this 

1791
01:55:27,040 --> 01:55:30,080
or his his men would resort to 
this sort of thing and almost 

1792
01:55:30,080 --> 01:55:34,440
having a a slight against the 
name, you know, and and holding 

1793
01:55:34,440 --> 01:55:37,080
that again, I'm speculating, but
I could see how that would be 

1794
01:55:37,080 --> 01:55:40,080
something that would hurt her 
reputation. 

1795
01:55:40,360 --> 01:55:47,400
And if she was respected, it 
maybe that would maybe that 

1796
01:55:47,400 --> 01:55:51,960
would hurt her some. 
And yeah, it's just, it's it's 

1797
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:55,400
sad that, you know, shoot the 
messenger approach of, you know,

1798
01:55:55,400 --> 01:55:58,400
Ray's just this is what 
happened. 

1799
01:55:59,400 --> 01:56:02,760
And what's interesting too, is 
the the beginning portions of 

1800
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:06,920
all of that back and forth in 
the in the in Dickens 

1801
01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:10,400
publication. 
We didn't you don't know yet 

1802
01:56:10,400 --> 01:56:13,360
about the victory point note 
that wasn't found until 1859. 

1803
01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:19,640
So they didn't know that 
Franklin had died for sure, 

1804
01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:21,440
although he had been declared 
dead. 

1805
01:56:21,880 --> 01:56:24,680
They didn't know because the 
victory point note says exactly 

1806
01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:28,200
when he died. 
So following that, we do know 

1807
01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:33,440
that had cannibalism took place,
Franklin wouldn't have been 

1808
01:56:33,440 --> 01:56:34,840
involved because he was already 
dead. 

1809
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:40,560
That doesn't mean others didn't 
resort to it, but he would not 

1810
01:56:40,560 --> 01:56:42,960
have. 
Yeah, but they wouldn't have 

1811
01:56:42,960 --> 01:56:44,680
known that at yeah, like you 
said, wouldn't have known that 

1812
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:46,480
at the time. 
And so they're operating off of,

1813
01:56:47,760 --> 01:56:50,840
I mean, we don't even know 
everything now, but back then 

1814
01:56:50,840 --> 01:56:53,920
they knew even less. 
That's an excellent point. 

1815
01:56:53,920 --> 01:56:58,360
That's right. 
Well, we are up to the final 

1816
01:56:58,360 --> 01:57:01,120
episode of the season. 
Everything comes to an end as 

1817
01:57:01,120 --> 01:57:03,800
nearly everybody dies, including
the Toombach who chokes on 

1818
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:06,920
Hickey's body. 
That leaves only one left from 

1819
01:57:06,920 --> 01:57:09,800
the expedition, Crozier. 
Although at the very end, it 

1820
01:57:09,800 --> 01:57:13,600
fast forwards to two years in 
1850 when some other white men 

1821
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:17,560
arrive at the Nitsilik village 
and Crozier himself hides, but 

1822
01:57:17,560 --> 01:57:20,400
he tells them or he tells the 
Nitsilik to tell the white men 

1823
01:57:20,400 --> 01:57:23,880
that all of the men are dead and
gone and there's no way to the 

1824
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:26,320
passage. 
So even though Crozier doesn't 

1825
01:57:26,320 --> 01:57:29,240
die at the end of the series, he
does leave his former life 

1826
01:57:29,240 --> 01:57:31,400
behind and seems to stay with 
the Nitslick. 

1827
01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:36,040
Did the series accurately show 
us how the story the men of the 

1828
01:57:36,040 --> 01:57:37,520
Erebus and Terror came to an 
end? 

1829
01:57:38,280 --> 01:57:43,800
Well, mostly, yes, except for 
the except for Crozier 

1830
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:47,360
surviving, it actually is 
pretty, pretty well done. 

1831
01:57:49,680 --> 01:57:55,840
They struggled mightily through 
the ice and snow and a lot of 

1832
01:57:55,840 --> 01:57:58,840
them just fell from exhaustion 
or or succumbed to their 

1833
01:57:58,840 --> 01:58:05,640
diseases right where they stood.
So, you know, Crozier may have 

1834
01:58:05,640 --> 01:58:08,760
been one of the last to survive.
I I think that's kind of an 

1835
01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:13,000
interesting take by the series 
because he was very experienced.

1836
01:58:14,160 --> 01:58:18,360
He was used to the conditions 
of, you know, such frigid 

1837
01:58:18,360 --> 01:58:20,240
weather. 
It'd been on several polar 

1838
01:58:20,240 --> 01:58:24,280
expeditions. 
So, you know, Andy was, he was a

1839
01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:29,320
pretty strong guy. 
So I'd like to think that he was

1840
01:58:29,320 --> 01:58:31,560
one of the last few to to 
survive. 

1841
01:58:33,800 --> 01:58:37,360
But yeah, I think it wraps up 
pretty well in in those terms 

1842
01:58:37,360 --> 01:58:42,280
that they all died of, you know,
a combination of starvation, 

1843
01:58:42,280 --> 01:58:50,480
scurvy, tuberculosis, perhaps 
Botulism, exposure and other 

1844
01:58:50,480 --> 01:58:54,720
maladies, perhaps. 
So I think it's interesting, 

1845
01:58:54,720 --> 01:58:56,920
especially given how we found 
them. 

1846
01:58:57,960 --> 01:59:00,600
You know, we found these camps 
in the overturned boats. 

1847
01:59:01,440 --> 01:59:03,880
And the fact that the boats are 
overturned tells me they were 

1848
01:59:03,880 --> 01:59:08,200
using them for or trying to use 
them for a shelter of some kind,

1849
01:59:08,200 --> 01:59:12,080
which means they had more or 
less given up trying to continue

1850
01:59:12,080 --> 01:59:14,400
on the March, at least some of 
them. 

1851
01:59:15,280 --> 01:59:19,040
My opinion is some of them 
probably stopped at at Erebus 

1852
01:59:19,040 --> 01:59:22,360
Bay and tried to make a camp 
there and hope that somebody 

1853
01:59:22,360 --> 01:59:25,480
came along. 
Some more probably camped at 

1854
01:59:25,480 --> 01:59:29,400
Terra Bay and then a handful 
continued on and actually made 

1855
01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:33,080
it across to the Adelaide 
Peninsula before they they died 

1856
01:59:33,080 --> 01:59:36,280
at Starvation Cove is what that 
point is called. 

1857
01:59:36,480 --> 01:59:39,600
Aptly it's. 
A horrible name for a place, but

1858
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:41,680
understandable why it would be 
called that, yeah. 

1859
01:59:42,640 --> 01:59:45,440
And there's artifacts found 
there too along the way. 

1860
01:59:45,440 --> 01:59:49,280
So we, we do know that they, 
they made a pretty long March, 

1861
01:59:49,560 --> 01:59:56,560
at least some of them did, and 
left behind not only their 

1862
01:59:56,560 --> 02:00:01,360
bones, but they're the boats and
all the things that belonged in 

1863
02:00:01,360 --> 02:00:04,400
that, that they were, they were 
carrying in the boats along with

1864
02:00:04,400 --> 02:00:09,640
some useless things like metal 
hoops and lines of silver or 

1865
02:00:09,840 --> 02:00:14,840
lines of lead sheets. 
They found books and all kinds 

1866
02:00:14,840 --> 02:00:19,040
of personal items that really do
help us understand at least 

1867
02:00:19,040 --> 02:00:21,800
where they were going or at 
least where they were trying to 

1868
02:00:21,800 --> 02:00:25,720
go. 
So that, you know, that plus the

1869
02:00:25,720 --> 02:00:29,800
victory point note plus the the 
oral history of the native 

1870
02:00:29,800 --> 02:00:33,000
people there. 
That's really what we have to go

1871
02:00:33,000 --> 02:00:37,160
on as far as what we understand 
to have happened. 

1872
02:00:39,520 --> 02:00:43,400
Well, we have covered a lot, but
of course there's so much more 

1873
02:00:43,400 --> 02:00:45,280
to the story we could ever cover
on a single episode. 

1874
02:00:45,520 --> 02:00:47,400
So is there anything about the 
true story we haven't had a 

1875
02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:49,280
chance to chat about yet that 
you want to make sure it gets 

1876
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:54,920
included? 
Yeah, you know, in the story in 

1877
02:00:54,920 --> 02:01:00,280
the show, they call John or 
Francis Crozier a gluca, and 

1878
02:01:01,240 --> 02:01:03,800
that's the very first shot of 
the whole series. 

1879
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:07,800
In episode 1, they show Sir 
James Clark Ross talking to the 

1880
02:01:07,800 --> 02:01:12,080
Inuit folks in the tent and they
point to a photo of Francis 

1881
02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:16,400
Crozier and they say a gluca 
that almost certainly didn't 

1882
02:01:16,400 --> 02:01:21,680
happen, that a gluca was a real 
term that they they used in it 

1883
02:01:22,120 --> 02:01:25,640
kind of broadly for for many of 
the white men, they, it meant 

1884
02:01:25,720 --> 02:01:30,360
one with long strides. 
They called Doctor John Ray a 

1885
02:01:30,360 --> 02:01:35,440
gluca as well. 
So that was interesting. 

1886
02:01:36,840 --> 02:01:41,720
James Clark Ross did go search 
for for Franklin, but he never 

1887
02:01:41,720 --> 02:01:46,080
made it to where they were. 
He he got blocked off of north 

1888
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:48,880
of there at Somerset Island and 
had to overwinter. 

1889
02:01:48,880 --> 02:01:53,000
He got stuck as well and he 
never even published an account.

1890
02:01:53,000 --> 02:01:56,040
He didn't find anything. 
So he felt he didn't publish 

1891
02:01:56,400 --> 02:02:00,320
anything about he didn't publish
anything about his search 

1892
02:02:00,320 --> 02:02:06,520
because he didn't find anything.
Now the long term that a lot of 

1893
02:02:06,520 --> 02:02:08,800
searches happened for the 
Franklin expedition. 

1894
02:02:09,840 --> 02:02:14,120
I, I mentioned the the first 
couple, James Clark Ross, John 

1895
02:02:14,120 --> 02:02:17,520
Ray, although he John Ray 
specifically set out on his 

1896
02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:25,080
second expedition to search for 
Franklin with Richardson, but 

1897
02:02:25,080 --> 02:02:26,560
they didn't find anything there 
as well. 

1898
02:02:26,960 --> 02:02:31,400
But Sir Leopold Mcclintock, 
Charles Francis Hall, Frederick 

1899
02:02:31,400 --> 02:02:37,200
Schwatka, all of them found 
evidence, talked to Inuit folks,

1900
02:02:37,200 --> 02:02:41,640
got oral testimony, and it all 
backed up what John Ray was told

1901
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:44,960
before and it all backed up the 
evidence they were finding. 

1902
02:02:47,080 --> 02:02:52,440
So, you know, those really help 
fill in the fill in the gaps of 

1903
02:02:52,440 --> 02:02:58,720
the things that we don't know. 
And interestingly, just to maybe

1904
02:02:58,720 --> 02:03:01,520
wrap up, they they did find the 
ships. 

1905
02:03:02,760 --> 02:03:10,160
Erebus was found in 2014, right 
where they, the native people 

1906
02:03:10,160 --> 02:03:15,040
said that it would be about 10 
miles or so off the northwest 

1907
02:03:15,040 --> 02:03:18,000
coast of the Adelaide Peninsula 
to the South. 

1908
02:03:18,480 --> 02:03:21,960
So it was about, I don't know, 
roughly 100 miles or so from 

1909
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:27,240
where they got stuck in the ice.
So somehow it drifted or was 

1910
02:03:27,240 --> 02:03:29,960
sailed there. 
And it's kind of a kind of a 

1911
02:03:29,960 --> 02:03:31,760
mystery that people like to 
debate. 

1912
02:03:33,280 --> 02:03:35,120
It was found in pretty good 
shape actually. 

1913
02:03:35,120 --> 02:03:39,080
They they identified the ship. 
They've got some artifacts off 

1914
02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:41,320
of it. 
No log books, unfortunately. 

1915
02:03:43,040 --> 02:03:47,120
And the Terror was found off the
Southwest coast at Terror Bay. 

1916
02:03:48,120 --> 02:03:49,800
It was in a little bit more beat
up shape. 

1917
02:03:49,800 --> 02:03:53,960
It was kind of on its keel a 
little bit or tilted over. 

1918
02:03:55,320 --> 02:04:00,280
But it was also found where it 
was said to be that, you know, 

1919
02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:03,840
all of these facts are lining up
with what the oral history says.

1920
02:04:04,760 --> 02:04:07,000
So Parks Canada has control of 
those wrecks. 

1921
02:04:07,000 --> 02:04:10,920
And they, they, you can, you can
look that up on their website. 

1922
02:04:10,920 --> 02:04:14,560
They've got some great videos 
and photographs of the things 

1923
02:04:14,560 --> 02:04:17,800
that they've uncovered. 
I don't think there's any plans 

1924
02:04:17,800 --> 02:04:23,880
to raise the ships, but they 
they have excavated it so. 

1925
02:04:24,520 --> 02:04:28,720
It makes me wonder, like if if 
only Charles Dickens and Lady 

1926
02:04:28,720 --> 02:04:32,320
Jane had listen to what Ray had 
said about, you know, the, the 

1927
02:04:32,320 --> 02:04:36,280
oral history and like, maybe it 
would have been found in time. 

1928
02:04:36,280 --> 02:04:37,760
I don't know. 
I mean, maybe, you know, to save

1929
02:04:37,760 --> 02:04:42,600
some, obviously not all, but 
maybe there would be a different

1930
02:04:42,600 --> 02:04:47,640
ending to the story. 
Yeah, you know, I don't think 

1931
02:04:47,640 --> 02:04:50,040
anything would have saved them, 
frankly. 

1932
02:04:52,480 --> 02:04:59,480
Sorry for the bad pun. 
I think they were doomed as soon

1933
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:04,520
as as soon as Franklin decided 
to turn W into Victoria Straight

1934
02:05:05,360 --> 02:05:08,560
instead of heading around the 
east side of King William Land 

1935
02:05:08,560 --> 02:05:11,040
as he called it. 
That pretty much doomed them. 

1936
02:05:11,040 --> 02:05:16,400
From there they had some pretty 
unusually cold winters and it 

1937
02:05:16,400 --> 02:05:21,840
just didn't melt in the summer, 
couldn't get through and they 

1938
02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:24,800
were stuck and that that pretty 
much sealed it for them. 

1939
02:05:25,320 --> 02:05:27,520
Thank you so much for coming on 
the show to chat about the 

1940
02:05:27,520 --> 02:05:29,400
terror. 
For anyone in my audience who 

1941
02:05:29,400 --> 02:05:32,200
wants to hear more maritime 
tales, you have a great podcast 

1942
02:05:32,200 --> 02:05:35,800
called Shipwrecks and Sea Dogs. 
So before I let you go, can you 

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02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:38,160
give my audience a 
recommendation for an episode 

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02:05:38,160 --> 02:05:40,840
that they can queue up in their 
podcast app to listen to right 

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02:05:40,840 --> 02:05:43,000
after we wrap up? 
Absolutely. 

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02:05:43,560 --> 02:05:49,240
The whole story of the Franklin 
expedition is in episode 115, 

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and that is an update that I 
made from an older episode that 

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02:05:53,320 --> 02:05:55,880
I did years ago. 
But I included all this new 

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02:05:55,880 --> 02:05:59,800
information about the DNA 
analysis and the the that they 

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02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:06,520
found William Oren and David 
Young and and linked Fitz 

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02:06:06,520 --> 02:06:09,120
James's jawbone. 
So I included all of that in 

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02:06:09,120 --> 02:06:12,320
this updated version. 
That's episode 115 and episode 

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02:06:12,320 --> 02:06:17,000
116 that I did as a follow up 
about Doctor John Ray, who was 

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02:06:17,560 --> 02:06:21,080
really important in terms of the
Franklin expedition and also 

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02:06:21,080 --> 02:06:24,840
just a really great man 
Underrated. 

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02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:27,360
Highly recommend listening to 
those. 

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02:06:29,480 --> 02:06:33,160
And that's at Shipwrecks and Sea
Dogs on all major platforms. 

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02:06:33,600 --> 02:06:37,240
Listen to them on any podcast 
app, Shipwrecks and seadogs.com 

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02:06:37,240 --> 02:06:40,960
or YouTube. 
And of course, I'll add those 

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02:06:40,960 --> 02:06:43,600
links in the show notes as well.
Thank you again so much for your

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02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:45,760
time, Rich. 
Dan, thank you so much. 

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02:06:45,760 --> 02:06:49,480
It was absolutely a pleasure to 
to to be here on your show. 

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02:06:49,600 --> 02:07:00,800
Thanks so much. 
This episode of Based on a True 

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02:07:00,800 --> 02:07:02,720
Story was produced by me, Dan 
Lafeb. 

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02:07:03,360 --> 02:07:05,960
Hop in the show notes or head on
over to Based on a True Story 

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02:07:05,960 --> 02:07:10,720
podcast.com slash 386 to find a 
link to Rich's podcast so you 

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02:07:10,720 --> 02:07:13,360
can queue up an episode to 
listen to as soon as we're done