Titanic Conspiracies and a Love Story

Titanic: Facts, Fiction, and a Love Story 

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Rich: Hello and welcome to shipwrecks and seadogs tales of mishaps, misfortune, and misadventure. I'm your host, Rich Napolitano. Today I am joined by two fabulous guests, Dr. Scarlettt Smash and Craken from the Marine Conservation Happy Hour podcast. Welcome and thank you so much for joining me.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Thank you for having us. 

We're very excited. I feel like we have we're kindred spirits when it comes to the sea and history, right?  

Rich: Ocean, ocean geeks. It's a very interesting topic, but before we get into any of that, let's just give our audience a little bit of information about. About the both of you and what you do 

Dr. Craken MacCraik: I'm, Dr. Craken MacCraic and one of the co hosts for the marine conservation happy hour podcast and in real life, I am a Dolphin biologist and I work on a variety of endangered species around the world Ideally, if it involves [00:01:00] palm trees and bars with fruity cocktails working there is my favorite. 

But I'm also a big maritime history nerd. I'm very interested in everything from the Vikings and pirates to the history of submarines.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: I'm not that posh. I am, though, I would say that I am the blue collar scientists that got a P. H. D. That's literally what I would say. I'm just really honestly hard working, and I do what possibly I can do for those that can't speak for themselves. 

And so I did a lot of policy work with Dr Craken in our field, and now I am doing some policy work with stuff here in Tampa, but other than that, I am, I'm a personality. That's why I'm on the marine conservation happy hour.  

Rich: Thank you both for being here and thank you for the work that you do to educate the public and [00:02:00] promote a safe conservation of our oceans. 

That's very important, especially in these times. Thank you. So today we're going to talk about a few different stories and, controversies or conspiracy theories about the RMS Titanic. Now it is a very interesting topic and we're not going to just retell the story of the Titanic. No, that would be so boring. 

Yes. Everybody knows it. DiCaprio and  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: Winslet have done it.  

Rich: Yes and I cannot possibly compete with James Cameron for a multitude of reasons. However we each have a little tidbit of information about the Titanic. Untold stories. Untold stories or sometimes told stories, but maybe little known stories. 

I'm going to start out and I'm going to talk about the conspiracy theory. That was popularized years ago about the switch that the white star line switched the sister ship [00:03:00] Olympic with the Titanic. And what I'll start off with is a little background. They're sister ships. 

They were both built in Belfast by Harland and Wolff big time famous shipbuilder in Northern Ireland. And the Olympic was launched first, and in 1911, in September of 1911, it collided with the HMS Hawk of the Royal Navy. Now, the Hawk had a reinforced hull. Especially in its bow, and it was meant to other ships to sink them. 

So it created a lot of damage on the Olympic and it was very expensive. The Olympic didn't sink, but it was able to. Limp back to South Hampton, get some minor repairs enough to sail all the way back to Belfast. While it was there, the Titanic was still under construction. So they have both ships back in port in Belfast at Harland and Wolff. 

The Olympic was determined to be at fault [00:04:00] for that accident with the HMS Hawk. And so the white star line had to pay massive legal bills. They were on the hook. And not only that, but the repairs were very costly. It had two huge holes in its hull and a bent propeller shaft, which that's a major repair. 

Nevertheless,  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: that must've been really hard to repair.  

Rich: Yeah. It has to come out of the, they have to put it back and dry dock. And And make those repairs for sure. But one of the things that came out of that story, though, was this concept of these class of ships being unsinkable. Now, contrary to popular belief, the White Star Line never itself said that they were unsinkable. 

What they said was they designed them to be as unsinkable as possible. That phrase just took root in the media and with the public, so it just became known as the unsinkable ships. But because the [00:05:00] Olympic didn't sink, even though it was badly damaged, it that, it fostered that reputation as unsinkable because it's It's watertight compartments worked and it didn't sink. 

Okay, so fast forward in November of 1911, several months later, it launches again. But on its way to New York, it lost its propeller, its whole propeller blade. So it was once again badly damaged. So it goes back to Harland and Wolff for repairs again. At this point is where the conspiracy comes in. Now the conspiracy goes what do you think the conspiracy might be? 

Do you have any thoughts?  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Oh, Craken is, he loves conspiracy. Go ahead, Craken.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: Oh you make me sound like a crazy guy who sits in his basement in his underwear. That they, because the ship had been damaged, they swapped over and basically scuttled. Yeah. Yeah. Scuttled  

Rich: it for the insurance. That [00:06:00] is exactly right. 

That is the, that's the conspiracy theory that it was already badly damaged and at this point they were far in debt from this ship, which had already lost, which had already cost them a lot of repairs and legal fees, but also lost time and voyages that they weren't profiting over. The theory goes that While in at Harland and Wolfe for repairs again, they made a switch. 

They painted over the names, they switched Titanic to Olympic. Now these two ships were nearly identical. They were, I think, within a foot or so, or a meter, I forget, it was really close. However, there were some significant differences. The forward half of Titanic's promenade deck was screened in and had windows, while the Olympic's forward, or actually the entire promenade deck, was open. 

Not only that. There has, since the Titanic has been found, part [00:07:00] numbers the hull number, all kinds of identifying marks on the Titanic have been identified, which are consistent with when the Titanic was built. So this theory really goes out the window for all those reasons. It's a fun theory to think about, but really in practicality, they would have had to do all those changes. 

Within about a week, which is really impossible. And  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: yeah,  

Rich: not only that, they would have to do it without anybody noticing or talking about it. 

Dr. Craken MacCraik: In Belfast, like no one's gonna talk in the pub in Belfast in the shipyards. Yeah, that's not happening.  

Rich: Exactly. And probably the biggest problem with this conspiracy theory, at least in my opinion, is that if they wanted to do that, if they wanted to destroy the ship, make it look like an accident so they can get the insurance money, why wouldn't they just do that [00:08:00] at the dock? 

Or at least after they launch it back into the water. They could make it look like a fire, when nobody was on board. Why put all of that effort into it, then sail it out to sea, and kill 1, 500 people? That makes no sense. So  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: Particularly some of the richest people in the world as well, who had, you know You have  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: absolutely. 

That is really interesting. That was that's a good story.  

Rich: Yeah, we all have  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: interesting stories. I love it because I hate the type, the traditional Titanic story.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: I have a quick one along those lines, a legend that you often see, that someone wrote a book basically prophesizing the Titanic sinking, that they wrote a book about a ship called the Titan, but actually what happened, they did write a book about a ship sinking, but hardly [00:09:00] anyone read it. 

And they only did a hundred copies. And when the Titanic sank, he went back and rewrote  

Rich: it.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: So it fit actually what happened. And they did a second edition and he made a load of money. So it really, it basically, he wrote a book about a ship that sinks the sea. And that's about as far as it. 

That's pretty sneaky. That is sneaky. Fake news.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: That is so fake news. I can't even believe someone would actually do that. Isn't that's rude to all the souls that were lost.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: I know, but he made a load of money.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Oh, okay. Wow, that's crazy. I, Dr. Scarlett Smash, have an incredible story. And, oh, I just love it. 

Get cozy and get ready because this is interesting. Did you know that there was one [00:10:00] man of color that was on the Titanic? No one ever talks about this because obviously back then it was the white affluent, right? Everyone talks about that. The white affluent people. The Irish in the, on the lower decks. 

There you go. Or the Irish. There was one. One black man, one. Now this man, he's really quite interesting. This whole story is very quite interesting. His name is Joseph Laroche. Hopefully I said that anyways, he is actually Haitian. And he was very smart. His family was affluent in Haiti. And he went to France. 

He was an engineer. So very brilliant, very smart. Back then, remember, we're talking about in the early 1900s, okay? Get this! He marries a white woman in France. [00:11:00] Wow. Woo! He is progressive. We're talking about this man was leading. So he was a smart black man. He he had biracial children. He was in a Me a biracial relationship. 

This was all very exciting. However, eh, people didn't want to give him, the opportunities that maybe the white people would get. So he had a hard time with his wife, two girls too getting the opportunity and the job in France. What happened is his wife got pregnant again, and when his mom heard who was in Haiti, when his mom heard about her being pregnant, she said, Come back home, right? 

Because actually, his uncle was the president of Haiti at that moment of time. Okay, so like they were gonna do well. So he's she says, it's I'm buying you two class first class [00:12:00] tickets. And this was on a different boat. This was actually on a steamboat. However, that one did not allow their children to be with them. 

So they didn't want to be separated. They would have to like sleep separately. They would have to dine separately. They just, it was just no children allowed.  

Rich: Wow.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Which is technically the kind of ships I would want to go on, right? No children allowed at this point.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: He's quite lucky that they allowed him to sell at all, because I think Frederick Douglass had first class tickets. 

And they refused to let him go into Europe.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: I think it's because it was leaving from Europe. And not from the United States, which was a lot more racist back then. Okay. Yes, I love that point. Dr. Craken. Great point. So here we go again. So what did they do? They decided? No. We want to be good parents and [00:13:00] we want to sail because it's going to be a long sailing point to New York City. 

We want to sail with our Children. So they traded their tickets, first class tickets to second class tickets on the Titanic. Oh, what an awful decision. I know Craken is shaking his head right now. Oh no. What a horrible decision. So hold on. I didn't tell you about this part. His wife's name is. Juliet. 

Oh, boy. Are you hearing a love story? A devastating love story coming up. Oh, good Lord. Okay, here we are on the night of the Titanic going down. Now, remember, she is light skinned. Okay, so is his Children. Okay. When the Titanic was going down, they do have records, absolute records from her, Juliet, who was a [00:14:00] survivor of the Titanic. 

When there was chaos, she said she was, she had one of her daughters, of course, don't forget she's pregnant right now too, so she's pregnant, she has one of her daughters, and she's pushed and shoved and thankfully was, got put on a lifeboat. Now, she got separated with Joseph, her husband, who had his other daughter, and he was just doing his possible, as possibly as he could, to try to get on a lifeboat. 

Obviously, that was not something that they could, that was happening, right? Because it was women and children. Thankfully, I honestly think, let's think about this again. His children were light skinned. What if they weren't? Would they have been put on the boat? I don't know. 

That is something that, is debatable. Okay, but someone grabbed his daughter and they were able to put her on another boat, that a lifeboat that [00:15:00] went to another ship that was rescuing them, right? And she Recalls Juliet. Oh, she recalls. Hearing from Joseph. Don't worry. I'll see you. And that was the last that they heard from him. 

So hold on. It gets even sadder. They make it. I know. I'm sorry. Bring out the tissues, everyone. They make it. They make it to New York on their safety ship. Okay. Sadly, she's there. Devastated, completely devastated. No one can find him. There's no recollection. No proof of where what happened to him. She stays in New York for three weeks by herself. 

Okay. Remember, they're trying to travel down to Haiti, so they have another boat that will be going down. She stays there for three weeks with her Children. [00:16:00] No English, does not speak English, all by herself, and now a widow. So this was a hard time for her.  

Eventually, after the three weeks, she got on the boat with the girls. 

They went down to Haiti. They, she gave birth. And her, she named her son Joseph, after her husband. But, this is the thing. No one really spoke about this story because Juliet was so devastated and so traumatized by the whole experience of the Titanic that she didn't allow her children or any of the family to talk about it at all. 

While she was, she was alive. No one could spread the conversation about this story. It is published now. And I just find that it's such an interesting story. I've never heard that  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: before. Yeah, James Cameron needs to do Titanic 2, the sequel. [00:17:00] Do a reboot. No!  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Forget it! This is so indifferent. 

I'm not doing that kind of love story again. This is a tragic love story. I just find it so compelling and inspiring that this man, during this time, and doing everything that he possibly could for his family. He literally lived his life trying to improve not only himself and make the great, a great life for his family, but he died for them too. 

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Even taking their They're first class tickets and going on the second class, ah, all for the kids. Oh man.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: Yeah, there's a big difference in the menu, first and second class. Oh,  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: there you go, there's the posh Dr. Craken. Yeah, you  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: don't get free champagne there, no, not second class. 

Yeah. And  

Rich: lucky one b plus. And of course [00:18:00] there's so many sad stories tragic stories from the Titanic and a lot of shipwrecks for that matter. But when you hear that personal details of a story like that, yes, it does pull at your heartstrings. There's  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: actual, she writes. 

Exactly what he says and she writes about what it was like, but you know before no one really talked about it But you know what? His story is no longer overlooked. Go and look him up. It's an incredible story Joseph I hope I'm saying that correctly.  

Rich: Yeah. And of course, the millions of people that will listen to this podcast will now know the story. 

Millions! Yay!  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: Talking about shipwrecks and stories, I have another little thing about the Titanic that a lot of people don't realize. This could be made into a [00:19:00] movie by itself. That the whole search for the Titanic was a cover story. Because the US military had actually contracted Bob Ballard. 

Famous, famous marine archaeologist, oceanographer, and so on. Used to get a lot of money from the US military. To do oceanographic research. Oh no, Craken, I'm  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: hearing scandal here. I'm hearing corruption and scandal.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: No, actual corruption. Just just see, just Fred James Bond. They actually contracted him to try and find two sunken nuclear submarines. 

The Scorpion and the Thresher, which had gone down in this really deep water. So the Titanic's down over two miles in the at the bottom of the Atlantic. But it's the area where they thought that the Titanic had sunk. So the [00:20:00] search for the Titanic was actually the cover story. For searching for these nuclear submarines and at the end of finding, mapping the submarines,  

Ballard had some time to actually go and look for the Titanic and sure enough, found it. 
  

Actually much of the military's Annoyance, because then suddenly there are a whole bunch of submarines going down to investigate and search for the Titanic, including Russian Mir submarines, while there were these two U. S. nuclear subs nearby. So it was all initially a cover story to find these nuclear submarines. 

I think this would have made a really good spy story about them going down on these deep submarines to try and investigate these subs while at the same time you've got the Titanic just around the corner [00:21:00] in a chase with Russian submarines and so forth. Wouldn't that make a great underwater James Bond y type movie? 

Okay,  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: and who would you put as the leading actor that would Discover the Titanic in the submarine.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: I'd have to recast it as a Brit, obviously.  

Rich: Oh  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: my gosh! I'd have to recast it as a Brit instead of Bob Ballard, because Bob Ballard's as American as Apple Pie. So I'd probably make it, I don't know, Tom Hardy. 

Tom  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Hardy, wait a minute. I want to know, let's go back. Why didn't you pick a woman?  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: There are female pilots of deep sea submersibles. There you  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: go.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: There are. There you  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: go.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: But in fact, I think there was one around about this time, and they, on the Alvin. Which is a submersible based at Woods Hole, it's funded by National Science Foundation, and they do actually have several female pilots of that, including famously Dawn Wright, who is a female [00:22:00] submersible pilot of color, and also a huge LEGO fan as well. 

And so they could  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: have a  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: female pilot, but I don't think they actually had Female Alvin Pilots at this particular time. Ah, gotcha.  

Rich: That's interesting. For the record, the first person I thought of was Gerard Butler. Oh! To be Bob Ballard.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Again, another man. Come on!  

Rich: Or The second person I thought of was Cate Blanchett. 

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Yay! Cate  

Rich: Blanchett would be good.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: That would be a great one. Absolutely. She does go  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: down in a submarine in The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou.  

Rich: Oh, okay. I haven't seen that one. Which,  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: oh, you should do. It's practically a documentary about Jacques Cousteau. Oh, okay. There are so many things that Actually happened in that movie that you couldn't believe that actually happened in on the Cousteau ships. 

So highly recommend that.  

Rich: And I should also mention too, that I do have an [00:23:00] episode about the USS Thresher and the loss of that submarine and how it was lost during a test dive and the search for, they were able to, they did find it and they recovered a small portion of it, but it's still down there. 

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Nifty.  

Rich: Yeah. They never recovered the nuclear reactor. Yeah.  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Okay. That's concerning.  

Rich: So you can find that episode in your, on Shipwrecks and Sea Dogs on your podcast app or at shipwrecksandseadogs. com plus all the other episodes. Where can everyone find your podcast?  

Dr. Scarlet Smash: Oh, you can find us anywhere. Just Google us, Dr. 

Scarlett Smash, Dr. Craken on the Marine Conservation Happy Hour podcast. We appreciate being here and we really hope everyone enjoyed this episode. 

Rich: Thank you so much for joining me and I hope you continue the great work you're doing and best of luck.  

Dr. Craken MacCraik: Thanks very much, Rich. [00:24:00]